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Thread: Senior Pairs Long Program

  1. #196
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Some people do not want to acknowledge that there is a procedure for selecting the Olympic Team. They demand an Olympic Trial in the form of the last Nationals before the current Olys.

    Where these people get confused, I believe, is that the best skater(s) are well known before the last Nationals before the Olys. Those same skaters place 1,2,3,at the Nats, and it appears that the Team was decided by the Nats and not by the special committee. But not so. The decisions coincided.as they often do.

    This year the best Pair Team for the last 3 years faltered at 1 and only 1 competition and finished too far down to be given an ok by the special committee which then decided to ok the 2nd place team at the Nats While I did not think it was the best decision, I was not a part of the deliberations.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    The procedure for picking the Olympic team has been established for decades.
    .
    Janet - Please show me the official version of the established procedure which you are talking about?

    As I have said before the results of the Nats more often than not, coincide with the special committee's selection.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine View Post
    PS: I respect Mathman & Joesitz opinions, they are part of the reason I come to this board, they are much older & wiser than me. I may not always agree with them, but I do respect them, which is far more than I can say for some others, huge understatement. But alas this is the way it is in the real world, only difference is that in the real world I have the option to ignore, never to see that person(s) again. Not so here, lol.
    Thank you Nadine. I am the black sheep of the Board, but without black sheep, we would all be in agreement that so and so should change the color of her dress.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 01-18-2010 at 01:43 PM. Reason: multiquote feature is your friend

  2. #197
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Janet - Please show me the official version of the established procedure which you are talking about?

    As I have said before the results of the Nats more often than not, coincide with the special committee's selection.
    Is it a coincidence that for so many decades the medalists at Natls are chosen for the Olympic team?

    If you can't accept as mathman pointed out the "reality" of how it is done - or comments from gsrossano and Sylvia - then I see little chance of changing your mind.

    It is what it is and I can think of very , very few times when the medalists were not selected.

    Michelle in '06 comes to mind - and she followed a rule by petitioning for injury reasons. That is a rule and if Evan had been hurt this weekend he could have done the same thing.

    Harding was kicked off after winning Natls in '94 - she went to court and the courts told the committee to take a hike.

    So much for your committee. Athletes have rights and gsrossano explained it all very well recently.

    Since then the "rules" have been changed but as many have continuosly pointed out it was more about keeping US Skating in control of the event.

    Whatever - no disrespect meant - I just don't agree with what you are saying.

  3. #198
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    No, that was just propoganda. First and second go.
    It doesn't matter how well they do. They won their spot fair and square.
    Except they don't.
    I just looked at their score sheet and one of their element has a +2 GOE.
    The rest have + GOE almost across the board.

    I/J have -GOE almost across the board.

    In international competition, both teams have -GOE. This is why what I/J scored is more in line with the international judging and what the 2nd team scored is questionable.

    When the result is so close, I think the committee needs to justify sending one team over another. Why have a committee if 1st and 2nd always get to go?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    What has been so frustrating to me throughout this whole season-long discussion is this, Joe. We have been clued in, over and over, by people who actually have contacts within the inner councils of the USFSA (Phil Hersh, Gsrossano, Sylvia), just how the Olympic selection committee works. This is what the committee does.

    (a) It validates the results of nationals.

    (b) It considers petitions from skaters requesting byes because of injuries (Kwan in 2006, Kerrigan in 1994, Eldredge in 1992)

    What the committee does not do -- never has -- is consider results from past Grand Prix Finals, Worlds, last year's Nationals, etc. The document that says that they do consider such things is a patent fabrication, made necessary by some nit-picky rules of the USOC, but not to be taken seriously as a description of what actually happens.

    So we know all these things, and have known them all season.

    And yet we are still getting posts about, hey, what about the committee? What about M&B having a better international record than E&L? What about I&B being past Olympians? What about Caroline Zhang doing well at Four Continents last year? What about Sasha having a better chance to medal in Vancouver than Ashley?

    So that just makes me
    Yesterday Sandra mentioned that the committee might be picking between Ryan Bradley and Johnny Weir but she said something about being old school and for her, the top 3 go.
    I would imagine Sandra has some formal contact with some members. Otherwise, where on earth would she get that idea that Weir might not be selected because his LP was not good even after he placed 3rd.

    So, do I believe Sandra or do I believe Philip Hersh, Gsrossano, Sylvia?

    Just to say it's not so dry and clear.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 01-18-2010 at 01:44 PM. Reason: multiquote!

  4. #199
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I presume you think E/L will be on the podium at the Olys? or are you happy they got a free trip to Vancouver as a reward for their stunning performance at Nats? They did beat veterans I/B by less than 1/2 pt. so they must be the stronger team.

    We should come back to this at the Olys and see how E/L do. I am not against them. Just skeptical.
    Ummmmm... why would you presume that I think E/L will be on the podium at Olympics? No, I don't think any of the US pairs teams have a remote shot at that, with S/Z, S/S, Z/Z, P/T, D/D, K/S and others in the mix. That was never my point... My point was that E/L rose to the occasion (at least better than some others) when it counted, and I believe that deserves a trip to the Olys.

  5. #200
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    No, because "Reiter" (in older German also often spelled "Reitter") means rider, as in horse-rider. Your ancestors were probably knights, since "Reiter" is also Middle High German (Ancient German from ca. 1050 till 1300 A.D.) for "Ritter", which is current day German for "knight".
    very cool!

  6. #201
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I presume you think E/L will be on the podium at the Olys? or are you happy they got a free trip to Vancouver as a reward for their stunning performance at Nats? They did beat veterans I/B by less than 1/2 pt. so they must be the stronger team.

    We should come back to this at the Olys and see how E/L do. I am not against them. Just skeptical.
    If you want precedence, flash back to 2006 St Louis Nationals.

    Hinzmann/Parchem, despite flawed performances, outpointed Orscher/Lucash who were the reigning National Champions from Portland. Hinzmann/Parchem were third in Portland.

    Their records the previous year were as follows: Orscher/Lucash 12th at Worlds, 3rd at 4CC, 5th at TEB, 6th at SA. Hinzmann/Parhem 5th at SA, 3rd at Nebelhorn.

    Guess who the USFSA picked to go to Olympics/Worlds? Yes you got it!!! At least the USFSA is consistent.

    Now to Amanda and Mark... they have been skating more than 40 years between them - and in those years dreamed of going to the Olympics. They have skated together for eight years and endured all kinds of hardships. They have trained well, done everything the USFSA asked them to do, had been dedicated and loyal skating denizens, and never once put their feet in their mouths. They've been repeatedly told, skate well at the Big Dance, and you will be rewarded. Well, they did!!!

    How dare you rain in their parade!!! And to ask for an audit after the Olympics is just uncalled for. Who died and made you God.

    You may be respected in this board, but I give you no respect. And just so you know, I am Amanda's father.

  7. #202
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I wouldn't say wiser... but MM is definitely OLD *runs and hides so MM can't beat her with his cane*

    Nadine - aside from those annoying Moderators this board DOES have an ignore feature that you can enable, if it makes it easier (but you're stuck with me... and that crabby ol' geezer with the cane!)

    Lol, thanks for the tip! But I've only had to use the IGNORE feature once, and that was at either TEB or Rostelecom Cup this past Fall, during the live PBP. Then afterwards I discovered that it only works if I'm logged on (which I only do so if I want to post, which isn't much of the time), so in the end it really doesn't work. Not true in the real world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Some people do not want to acknowledge that there is a procedure for selecting the Olympic Team. They demand an Olympic Trial in the form of the last Nationals before the current Olys.

    Where these people get confused, I believe, is that the best skater(s) are well known before the last Nationals before the Olys. Those same skaters place 1,2,3,at the Nats, and it appears that the Team was decided by the Nats and not by the special committee. But not so. The decisions coincided.as they often do.

    This year the best Pair Team for the last 3 years faltered at 1 and only 1 competition and finished too far down to be given an ok by the special committee which then decided to ok the 2nd place team at the Nats While I did not think it was the best decision, I was not a part of the deliberations.


    Janet - Please show me the official version of the established procedure which you are talking about?

    As I have said before the results of the Nats more often than not, coincide with the special committee's selection.


    Thank you Nadine. I am the black sheep of the Board, but without black sheep, we would all be in agreement that so and so should change the color of her dress.

    Lol, I really have never considered you the black sheep ever, as you seem to go hand-in-hand with Mathman's decisions, even here. Still, I enjoy reading what you have to say. And, lol, I haven't forgotten our little argument(s) years ago about Oksana Baiul, and also that one judge (can't recall his name, sorry), or the judging at that competition. But I do recall your temper, and I can relate.

    ps: oops, looks like you just pissed off someone's father, rotflmao!!!!!!!!
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 01-18-2010 at 04:35 PM.

  8. #203
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gold12345 View Post
    I'm guessing a lot of people understand that realistically, USFS is just going to go by National results in picking the Oly team...

    But there's no reason why we can't have a discussion as to why that may not always be a great idea.
    Oh, of course. I'm sorry if what I wrote comes off as trying to squelch debate. That's what the forum is for!

    The point I was trying to make, however clumsily, is that we should be careful to distinguish opinion from fact. It seemed to me that the facts about how the Olympic team is chosen are clear.

    I will be the first to say I was wrong if the ladies and dance selections go any other way than 1-2 and 1-2-3.

    Beyond that, sure we all have our opinions about what we think the selection committee should do instead.

    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo13 View Post
    I am Amanda's father.
    Congratulations to you and your family on your daughter's achievement. (Yes, I know, Amanda and Mark are the ones who skated, but everyone understands how crucial the sacrifice and support of the family are, especially in the long haul.)

    I can only image the pride you will feel when you watch your daughter march into the Olympic stadium with the U.S. team.

    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    Yesterday Sandra mentioned that the committee might be picking between Ryan Bradley and Johnny Weir but she said something about being old school and for her, the top 3 go.

    I would imagine Sandra has some formal contact with some members....
    I got a hoot out of that, too. Obviously not only Sandra but the whole NBC crew had been clued in by the USFSA to go along with the USFSA's little joke. If you play the tape back you will see that they could hardly say it with a straight face. Basically, after they delivered the prepared line, "oh dear, I wonder what the committee will do," they immediately went to (Scott), yeah, it will be the top three.

    Remember that the reason for all this is that the USFSA discovered a loophole in the USOC charter that basically required that the USFSA pretend to have other criteria than 1-2-3 at Nationals, lest they get into a sticky legal situation. Obviously NBC was willing to play along.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 01-18-2010 at 04:36 PM.

  9. #204
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo13 View Post
    Now to Amanda and Mark... they have been skating more than 40 years between them - and in those years dreamed of going to the Olympics. They have skated together for eight years and endured all kinds of hardships. They have trained well, done everything the USFSA asked them to do, had been dedicated and loyal skating denizens, and never once put their feet in their mouths. They've been repeatedly told, skate well at the Big Dance, and you will be rewarded. Well, they did!!!

    How dare you rain in their parade!!! And to ask for an audit after the Olympics is just uncalled for. Who died and made you God.

    You may be respected in this board, but I give you no respect. And just so you know, I am Amanda's father.
    Congratulations to Amanda, to you and your entire family. Terrific post!

  10. #205
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo13 View Post
    Now to Amanda and Mark... they have been skating more than 40 years between them - and in those years dreamed of going to the Olympics. They have skated together for eight years and endured all kinds of hardships. They have trained well, done everything the USFSA asked them to do, had been dedicated and loyal skating denizens, and never once put their feet in their mouths. They've been repeatedly told, skate well at the Big Dance, and you will be rewarded. Well, they did!!!

    .
    I was so happy for Amanda and Mark and they earned the right to represent their country in Vancouver by the way they skated at Natls.

    I hope they enjoy their Olympic experience and I will be cheering loudly for them.

  11. #206
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    I wanted to comment and say that I think the team placements were fair here. I'm fine with the idea of the committee taking into account other competitions BUT, I think that Nationals should only be subverted for someone who has major accomplishments on the international stage. I.e Japan giving Oda and Miki automatic births when they both finished 2nd at the GPF.

    But I think that none of the US pairs teams have so distinguished themselves on the international stage that Nationals shouldn't matter. M/B I have liked a lot but their being the US top team internationally was in someways arguable. Their win last year was controversial and D/B beat them at Worlds, I seem to recall. I feel M/B aren't as good as they were two years ago...

    What does it really matter if we have a team that finishes 8th or finishes 13th at the Olympics, anyways?


    I understand what you mean. E/L have not done well internationally. They are well received in the U.S. and are often crowd favorites at Nationals, but that doesn't matter so much when you are going to an International event like the Olympics. You could argue that I/B can't potentially finish that much higher than E/L, so who cares if we sent 2nd or 3rd place... But I personally would always try to finish as high as I could at the Olympics, and send the teams with the best, most realistic chances at scoring well there.
    E/L though have always gone into international competitions as a low ranking American team. That's hardly going to get you a whole lot of cred from the international judges. They might get more notice now that they are the US silver medalists.
    Last edited by bekalc; 01-18-2010 at 04:13 PM.

  12. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    . . . none of the US pairs teams have so distinguished themselves on the international stage that Nationals shouldn't matter. M/B I have liked a lot but their being the US top team internationally was in someways arguable. Their win last year was controversial and D/B beat them at Worlds, I seem to recall. I feel M/B aren't as good as they were two years ago...
    EXCELLENT POST
    Some people seem to be looking at individual Grand Prix competitions of this year to claim one team better internationally than the other. They are forgetting the actual performances contained mistakes from all teams, PCS scores are somewhat dependent on reputation and experience, and each event had different competitors. Some could argue that some teams had easier or harder assignments. That is why the committee's criteria did not include individual Grand Prixs. They only mentioned 2010 Nationals, 2009 Worlds, 2009 4CCs, and 2010 Grand Prix Final. Based on performances at these events I think the committee made a sound decision. GO FLORIDA TEAMS!

  13. #208
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadine View Post
    Lol, I really have never considered you the black sheep ever, as you seem to go hand-in-hand with Mathman's decisions.:
    I think you just insulted Joe. He never agrees with me on anything.

    "Mathman's decisions?" Oh gosh, I hope I don't come off as making "decisions." Silly opinions, lame jokes, and pompous pontificating, yes.
    Last edited by Mathman; 01-18-2010 at 04:30 PM.

  14. #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo13 View Post
    If you want precedence, flash back to 2006 St Louis Nationals.

    Hinzmann/Parchem, despite flawed performances, outpointed Orscher/Lucash who were the reigning National Champions from Portland. Hinzmann/Parchem were third in Portland.

    Their records the previous year were as follows: Orscher/Lucash 12th at Worlds, 3rd at 4CC, 5th at TEB, 6th at SA. Hinzmann/Parhem 5th at SA, 3rd at Nebelhorn.

    Guess who the USFSA picked to go to Olympics/Worlds? Yes you got it!!! At least the USFSA is consistent.

    Now to Amanda and Mark... they have been skating more than 40 years between them - and in those years dreamed of going to the Olympics. They have skated together for eight years and endured all kinds of hardships. They have trained well, done everything the USFSA asked them to do, had been dedicated and loyal skating denizens, and never once put their feet in their mouths. They've been repeatedly told, skate well at the Big Dance, and you will be rewarded. Well, they did!!!

    How dare you rain in their parade!!! And to ask for an audit after the Olympics is just uncalled for. Who died and made you God.

    You may be respected in this board, but I give you no respect. And just so you know, I am Amanda's father.


    Mr. Apollo13, don't forget that I&B have also worked just as hard as your daughter & her partner (not to mention the countless other skaters out there), so I don't see how that has any relevance to the discussion. They ALL work hard.

    Heck, if that were part of it, might as well bring in the fact that Rena has overcome cancer as well. And I know the Baldwins are supposed to come from money, so I could see how people may resent that fact. And as you eluded to, yes, John Baldwin has put his foot in his mouth so many times it's not even funny.

    Lol, I'm not even a fan of pairs skating anymore, but when I see what *I* perceive as injustice I speak up. I&B have every right to show their dissatisfaction, same as the fans do, even when we know that in the end it doesn't matter. But that's not the point, the point is that we're allowed to discuss & debate. Thank God we live in America!

    Last note, USFSA is known to play their little power games, and who they like goes & whom they don't like have to make sure to earn it by more than a 1/2 point, so they don't get left out in the cold. For example, Johnny Weir has never been a USFSA darling, unlike Michelle Kwan, the good little soldier. Johnny's just lucky he didn't win by only a 1/2 point over Bradley, otherwise he would've been the one left home. And that's only JMHO.

    And as you said, your daughter & her partner have been loyal skating denizens, never putting a foot wrong (unlike John Baldwin, lol), so Congrats on your daughter & her partner making the Olympic Team. What an honor!!!!!!!!!

  15. #210
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Apollo13 View Post
    And just so you know, I am Amanda's father.
    I've already congratulated you and Amanda elsewhere but wanted to voice it again on here! They were absolutely FANTASTIC and I'm so bummed I missed being there!!!!! Congratulations and enjoy vancouver, they (and their families) deserve it!

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