Senior Pairs Long Program

[Joesitz]

How dare you rain in their parade!!! And to ask for an audit after the Olympics is just uncalled for. Who died and made you God.

You may be respected in this board, but I give you no respect. And just so you know, I am Amanda's father.

I understand your anger at me, and others who also think the same, but it was just my opinion, as it was last year when I thought Amanda and Mark should have been on the podium.

[janetfan]

I understand your anger at me, and others who also think the same, but it was just my opinion, as it was last year when I thought Amanda and Mark should have been on the podium.

Nice comments Joe.
I never took your posts as being against Amanda and Mark - and thought you were questioning the selection process as a whole.

Whenever a competition is that close there will always be fans who are upset by the results. It is OK to question the selection process and to disagree with it.

For me the results were fine and I am happy that Amanda and Mark were selected for the Olympic team. I am also a little sad for the others but that is the nature of sport.

[Apollo13]

I understand your anger at me, and others who also think the same, but it was just my opinion, as it was last year when I thought Amanda and Mark should have been on the podium.

Anger is such a harsh word; it is not in my vocabulary. Annoyance is more like it.

I have no objection to anyone expressing their opinion as to how the selection process should be. And I have not replied to postings from any other poster - they are entitled to their opinions. But you must admit that you have said some snarky, snide, hurtful and sarcastic comments about Amanda and Mark, using conveniently-positioned expressive emoticons for emphasis. Those remarks, I object to.

Vic Evora

[Mrs. P]

Anger is such a harsh word; it is not in my vocabulary. Annoyance is more like it.

I have no objection to anyone expressing their opinion as to how the selection process should be. And I have not replied to postings from any other poster - they are entitled to their opinions. But you must admit that you have said some snarky, snide, hurtful and sarcastic comments about Amanda and Mark, using conveniently-positioned expressive emoticons for emphasis. Those remarks, I object to.

Vic Evora

Mr. Evora, I would recommend that you do not read these forums. People have their opinions and as you have seen, they can be hurtful. But those same comments have been said about Sasha Cohen, Johnny Weir and pretty much all the other skaters. People here have their favorites and their not-so-favorites and they're not afraid to express their opinions about who they like, don't like and otherwise.

While I don't agree with name calling or insulting comments, I also know that is par for the course in these forums. Some people can be harsh. And perhaps, in trying to be constructive (which I believe Joelitz is trying to be) they are coming across as harsh.

Your daughter and her partner have achieved a great goal, and I really do not want forum comments to deter from your celebration, especially when they made be made by people who probably do not know or can even try to understand the work they've made to reach this point. You have a lot to be proud of. And I rather you spend your time relishing in this special moment with your daughter rather then reading these forums.

[Spun Silver]

Mrs. P is right. There will never be 100% support of any skater or team and ultimately I believe the skaters are best served by enthusiastic, freewheeling fan discussion boards - which promote public interest and meet a different need (i.e., the public's) than that of the skaters themselves and their families. This is a very nice board compared to some others and there are guidelines for courtesy here, but Joesitz definitely didn't break any of them.

P.S. I thought E/L were beautiful and I'm eager to see them in the Olympics! Congrats to them! But I would have understood if I/B had gotten silver/Oly spot instead - I mean, that throw 3A is a big deal!

[daisies]

While I don't agree with name calling or insulting comments, I also know that is par for the course in these forums.

It's not only par for the course in these forums, it's par for the course for anyone who gains any celebrity or notoriety. Better get used to it, Mr. Evora. Congrats and good luck to your daughter.

[Wicked]

I can answer this as IceNetwork reported that the USFSA was going more tech based... and they ARE sending the message via text message.

that being said the men were told to check their text msgs while they were at the press conference after the LP... so they found out before they had a chance to whip out their phone.

Thanks, Toni. Is the US the only country doing this? I think this is so funny. It's just so impersonal.

[Mathman]

^ What did the message say? u r going 2 the Os.

[Joesitz]

Anger is such a harsh word; it is not in my vocabulary. Annoyance is more like it.

I have no objection to anyone expressing their opinion as to how the selection process should be. And I have not replied to postings from any other poster - they are entitled to their opinions. But you must admit that you have said some snarky, snide, hurtful and sarcastic comments about Amanda and Mark, using conveniently-positioned expressive emoticons for emphasis. Those remarks, I object to.

Vic Evora

Here is my original post on the matter. Please refer me to your comments within.

01-17-2010, 12:17 AM #68
Joesitz
Custom Title




Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: New York City
Posts: 17,683 I think Innue and Baldwin will be considered too.

McL/Bru could have been considered but 2 poor skates, I would think is a no no.

No doubt about Cadee/Denny, they will go and they may even podium, if they skate the way they did.

Congrats to Evora/Ladwiq.


Joesitz

As you can see, just questioning the select committee's duties. and, please point out any snarky, snide remarks I make it the future. I did not have a cultured upbringing and any help would be appreciated.

[skatemom8]

My daughter is lucky enough to skate at the same rink in Ellenton as our new Olympian Pairs Skaters. Over the years we have gotten to know the skaters fairly well, particularly Mark and Amanda. My daughter currently takes private lessons with Amanda and I just have to say she could not have a better role model. She is learning SO much from Amanda and not just skating skills. Amanda is teaching her the value of working hard, dreaming big, and being gracious whether you win or lose. I can sincerely say that she is genuinely a lovely person (and so is Mark). Obviously the choice of who belongs on the Olympic team should not be a popularity contest, and should be awarded based on skill, but I am happy to say it could not have happened to nicer people.

You should be VERY proud of daughter Mr. Evora. And not just because she is a talented skater, but because of who she is as a person.

^ What did the message say? u r going 2 the Os.

Oddly enough, yes. It basically said, "Congratulations, you have been named to the 2010 Olympic Team. Please report to the Press Room"...or something like that.

[gold12345]

I'm fine with the idea of the committee taking into account other competitions BUT, I think that Nationals should only be subverted for someone who has major accomplishments on the international stage. I.e Japan giving Oda and Miki automatic births when they both finished 2nd at the GPF.

I can understand that. But then I look at a sport like gymnastics, in which the U.S. is enormously successful, and they would NEVER pick something as important as an Olympic team based on a single competition. After Nat's, Olys Trials, and several training camps/competitions, the selection committee picks the gymnasts who are capable of scoring the highest on the international level. Many gymnasts who have done poorly at Nat'ls have gotten a free pass because of the scoring potential they do have on the intl stage. It's hard to argue with the success of the U.S. gymnastics team. Of course, skating is different from gymnastics, but I see some legit similarities.

I just don't know how wise it is to make Nationals mean EVERYTHING. It leaves the door open to the possibility that skaters may place well based on luck, or lack thereof. If Jeremy Abbott went out and fell two or three times in his LP last weekend and slipped to 4th or 5th, should we have left him home from the Olympics? To me, the answer is absolutely not.

M/B I have liked a lot but their being the US top team internationally was in someways arguable. Their win last year was controversial and D/B beat them at Worlds, I seem to recall.

I'm wondering how it's arguable. They have had the highest US scores internationally for 3 years now (including the most recent GP series), and they have won 5 GP medals in 3 years. The only other US pair that has won any GP medals (2) in the past 3 years is Inoue/Baldwin. This doesn't mean that I believe GP scores from '07 are relevant now in '10, but being consistently competitive on the GP circuit demonstrates that the intl judges see something in M/B's skating that they do not necessarily see in the other US pairs. Some of M/B's rougher skates have surpassed the personal best scores of some other top U.S. pairs. I think the way they are scoring with mistake-filled performances shows that their scoring potential is already quite high.

If we look at major ISU championships-- well, none of the top US pair teams aside from I/B have much experience competing at them--- But if we want to look at '09 competitions, M/B were the highest US finishers at 4CC and then did the worst LP of their lives at Worlds. Denney/Barrett skated their best there, but their LP score was low, and would have been passed by M/B with a decent skate. M/B have consistency issues, plenty to work on, and you could argue that their Nationals performance was crappy enough to justify leaving them off the Oly team, but I don't see how you can argue that they haven't been the top US pair internationally as of late. I think the scores and placements speak for themselves.

What does it really matter if we have a team that finishes 8th or finishes 13th at the Olympics, anyways?

I would always try to finish as high as I could and be as competitive as possible. Even Inoue/Baldwin might have been competitive at the Olympics with teams like Bazarova/Larionov, Langlois/Hay, and Denney/Barrett for a top 8 slot. Getting a team in the 2nd to last warmup group at an Olys would be great and generate a little more excitement and exposure for U.S. pairs. I know a lot of people have said "who cares?" when it comes to the US pairs' finishes in Vancouver, but I always think you should try to have the best showing you can.

E/L though have always gone into international competitions as a low ranking American team. That's hardly going to get you a whole lot of cred from the international judges. They might get more notice now that they are the US silver medalists.

I really don't think that's the reason they've scored so low. Maybe in ice dancing that would matter, but I don't think it matters in the other disciplines.

If you want precedence, flash back to 2006 St Louis Nationals.

Hinzmann/Parchem, despite flawed performances, outpointed Orscher/Lucash who were the reigning National Champions from Portland. Hinzmann/Parchem were third in Portland.

Their records the previous year were as follows: Orscher/Lucash 12th at Worlds, 3rd at 4CC, 5th at TEB, 6th at SA. Hinzmann/Parhem 5th at SA, 3rd at Nebelhorn.

Guess who the USFSA picked to go to Olympics/Worlds? Yes you got it!!! At least the USFSA is consistent.

I'm not understanding the Orscher/Lucash example. That was a time when the US pairs scene seemed hopelessly uncompetitive and nobody was doing anything at all except I/B. I don't think O/L were any better than H/P or had any better results. O/L's one and only intl medal ever was at 4CC before 4CC were actually taken seriously by every country.

Oh, and if this really is Amanda's dad, congratulations to your daughter on her amazing accomplishment! She looked beyond thrilled, and it was such an exciting moment to watch.

[Mathman]

IIt's hard to argue with the success of the U.S. gymnastics team.

I think it's hard to argue with the success of the U.S. figure skating teams over the years, too.

Of course, skating is different from gymnastics, but I see some legit similarities.

I think the main difference is that in gymnastics they have to field a team, so they have to balance specialists on individual apparatuses with all-round performers.

In the case of Japan giving an automatic spot to Miki for her placement in the Grand Prix Finals, and an automatic place to Mao for being the national champion, that follows the explicit rules of the Japanese Federation. I wouldn't mind if the USFSA had rules like that. What I don't like is to have no firm criteria, and just say, if the selection committee likes you , you go, if they don't like you, you don't.

The advantage to the present selection process is that the skaters all know what the deal is. Get first or second at Nationals, you go to the Olympics. No backroom deals, no argumments about whether it is better to get fifth at the Grand Prix finals or second at Four Continents or 8th at Worlds.

If Jeremy Abbott went out and fell two or three times in his LP last weekend and slipped to 4th or 5th, should we have left him home from the Olympics?

I think if Ryan Bradley had beaten Abbott then the fair and right thing to do would be to send Bradley. Decide it on the field of play, not in the committee room. I think in the long run, principles should prevail over practicality. (Good karma, and all that. )

[gold12345]

I think it's hard to argue with the success of the U.S. figure skating teams over the years, too.

That is a good point.

I think the main difference is that in gymnastics they have to field a team, so they have to balance specialists on individual apparatuses with all-round performers.

True. But there have been instances where, say, a top All Around gymnast has had a poor Nationals performance, but was selected to do the AA at Worlds over gymnasts who may have finished higher than her at Nationals, but had lower scoring potential. The 2nd place gymnast from the most recent Nationals was skipped over for one of the two AA slots for Worlds. I'm not sure if you follow gymnastics, but the girl who ended up getting the AA chance seemed to have cracked under the pressure in trying to win the National title and fell out of the top 2, but USAG believed in her enough to give her an AA chance at Worlds. I understand your point about having clear cut selection criteria, but I'm not sure if that is always going to pick the best team.

I think if Ryan Bradley had beaten Abbott then the fair and right thing to do would be to send Bradley. Decide it on the field of play, not in the committee room. I think in the long run, principles should prevail over practicality. (Good karma, and all that. )

Ah, it's interesting to me to hear that people feel this way. I just feel like that makes Nationals more nerve-wracking that the Olympics itself and entices the skaters to be at their best for Nationals more so than the Olympics, which should be the more important event. And what if someone just has some fluke great performance one weekend? Should that be enough to make the most important sports team there is? But I do understand what you are saying, too.