Inflated Scores | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Inflated Scores

enlight78

Medalist
Joined
Nov 2, 2005
Didn't Chan, Rochette, and D/D remind the world that they are medal contenders through their skating? All three put in amazing performances - with Joannie and D/D skating the best they have in a very long time. Chan is starting to get back to his form.

Personally chan ad D/D skate makes me doubt there medal potential; chan right now looking like he will be out of the top 6; same for D/D; I'm sorry but i feel like canada is kinda setting themselves up with the casuall fan; If they give and identical performances and score about 30 points less theres gonna be a head scratching moment
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Chan is not the only skater in the world that has good non-jump elements. And I think some fans get a little carried away and think that Chan is head and shoulders above any other skater in doing these non-jump elements. I love Chan, but the fact that he scored 2 points higher with his free skate than Abbott did (which was a bit overscored already) at US Nats with his respective free skate tells me that Chan was indeed very overscored, period. And 90 for his SP? You've got to be kidding if you don't think that's overscoring.

I was not a fan of Patrick Chan. In fact, I thought his SP score was ridiculous, and his happy reaction to it ungracious in the face of such a gift. Then I actually saw his SP and studied the protocols. I was wrong; he wasn't overscored by more than a few points. You know what, yes, he is head and shoulders above any skater in his movement across the ice, at least in this performance. He skates with an old school, elegant and compact kind of carriage, but at about 20 times the speed and complexity. When he's on in that department (and he isn't always, his skates at the recent Skate Canada for example), no one comes close. It's a talent rarer than the ability to land quads, and applicable to far more elements and components.
 

skatingbc

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 2, 2009
I watched the short program and not only does Chan's straight-line step sequence cover the ice length-wise but it also covers the ice width-wise.

Can we just get over the fact that the scores are inflated? No one is claiming that they aren't! Even the evil media is making sure that everyone knows they are inflated!!!
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
1. Do we think Chan would've gotten that score in international competition? Do we think that another technical caller would've given both step sequences level four?

These are two totally different questions.

No, I don't think he would get as high scores internationally, but the reason is that I don't think the GOEs and PCS from the judges would be quite as generous.

If he met the requirements for level 4 step sequences, the callers should give him level 4 no matter who they are or where the competition is taking place. Element levels are really more of a "yes or no" question than components or +GOEs.
 

sk8rdad

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 2, 2009
That's because Abbott skated that much better than he has ever skated. Perhaps it behooves you to actually watch all those skates in question before you declare it a case of overscoring. And really, it's disingenuous to bring up a competition in another country as some sort of justification. "So-and-so is doing it so why can't I" is an excuse that shouldn't be used by anyone past seven. Of course, it doesn't even work for seven year olds.

All I'm am trying to point out is some posters cannot state that Chan was grossly over marked because he exceeded his personal best and yet turn around and ignore that fact that some other skater also exceeded theirs substantially. We all know there is a tendency to over inflation at National events compared to Internationals. At least no one in either of these events was being given 10's.
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
So , it 's not a matter of whether it should happen ( I'm sure everyone thinks it shouldn't.) but recognizing that , realistically , it does happen, to a greater or lesser degree , pretty well universally. It's a vicious cycle.

The question is, what to do about it? There was a possible solution suggested by a group of skating insiders following the Salt Lake meltdown and the infamous foot-tapping world's, that I thought might have some merit. ( I've heard Tracy Wilson explain it a number of times, but haven't heard it mentioned much in the last couple of years.)

Roughly , the idea would be to have all international judges hired directly by the ISU , and be answerable only to that body, bound to uphold a universal standard. They would have to demonstrate a certain level of expertise to be hired . They would owe nothing to any national federation , and their jobs would be on the line if their performance was poor or seen to be politically motivated.

Is anything like that still simmering on a back burner, somewhere ?
 

jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Chan is not the only skater in the world that has good non-jump elements. And I think some fans get a little carried away and think that Chan is head and shoulders above any other skater in doing these non-jump elements. I love Chan, but the fact that he scored 2 points higher with his free skate than Abbott did (which was a bit overscored already) at US Nats with his respective free skate tells me that Chan was indeed very overscored, period. And 90 for his SP? You've got to be kidding if you don't think that's overscoring.

I'm sure many skaters have good non-jump elements. I personally think Chan was better than Abbott in the non-jump elements while Abbott had an edge over Chan in the jumps. But you see, it's easy to compare jumps, one landed perfectly, the other shaky etc. But it's not that easy to compare non-jump elements such as speed, the ice coverage, commanding the ice etc.

And again, what is a fair score for a skater anyway. There's no guide saying, ok, that skate worths 150, anything over is overscored. And it is even harder to compare skaters who were skating in a different competition.
 

jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
1. Do we think Chan would've gotten that score in international competition? Do we think that another technical caller would've given both step sequences level four? Abbott's PCS might have dropped internationally, but given how awesome he was, I don't think by much (and frankly, we'd be complaining about his low PCS to high heaven - see NHK and GPF threads if you don't believe me).

You don't think Chan's step sequences worth level four? If his was not a level 4, then many others should be at level 1-2. Abbott's PCS are low because he's just not that good.


3. So what makes Canada different? Well, imo - two things
a) Canada's hosting the Olympics. Fairly self explanatory.

b) It might just be me, but there's a degree of calculation in the scores that bugs me. It almost seems as if the judges are trying to remind the world that Rochette, Chan and D/D are medal contenders (Virtue/Moir's scores by comparison, are quite reasonable in terms of inflation, and no one needs reminding that they're top tier contenders).

Don't even understand your question. Why or who thinks Canada is different? Are you implying that if a Canadian team win gold, it's because it's in Canada?
 

100yen

You can't explain witchcraft
Medalist
Joined
Jan 8, 2009
You don't think Chan's step sequences worth level four? If his was not a level 4, then many others should be at level 1-2. Abbott's PCS are low because he's just not that good.

Mmm...I think many people would beg to differ to that. ;)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Watching on video, I think the two skaters who have the best skating skills in the world right now in terms of using deep edges and complex turns and combinations of edges throughout the programs, including leading into and out of the elements, are Chan and Abbott. They are both that good.

What I can't tell from the videos is how they compare with each other and with the other top skaters in terms of power, speed, absolute ice coverage.

The actual Skating Skills marks may vary from performance to performance depending on execution. Same for the other components. And Interpretation especially would be more subject to judges' (or fans') subjective impressions.
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
What I can't tell from the videos is how they compare with each other and with the other top skaters in terms of power, speed, absolute ice coverage.

The actual Skating Skills marks may vary from performance to performance depending on execution. Same for the other components. And Interpretation especially would be more subject to judges' (or fans') subjective impressions.

I can't speak for Abbott as I don't watch him that often but as for Patrick his ice coverage is one of the best. In his straight line he not only goes end to end, he also covers the width of the ice. He seems to build up speed fairly easily - Kurt has said that even he has no idea how he picks up his speed.

Interpretation is subjective as you said but I feel as if Chan should be way ahead in this area when you compare him to a skater like, Plushenko. In Plushenko's short program, it doesn't even seem like he is listening to his own music as he is skating to a different tempo.
 
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gopatrick

EnChanted
On the Ice
Joined
Nov 8, 2008
I can't speak for Abbott as I don't watch him that often but as for Patrick his ice coverage is one of the best. In his straight line he not only goes end to end, he also covers the width of the ice. He seems to build up speed fairly easily - Kurt has said that even he has no idea how he picks up his speed.

I watched them both, and I totally agree with you, not only just because I am bearing my username:p
Abbott has superior jumping technique, smooth and good edges, but lacks the attack, power and speed of Patrick's skating.
 

Binthere

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 28, 2008
To me it seems inevitable to watch the PCS inflation that has been occurring since IJS started. It's very much a natural evolution in my opinion. It happened in the extreme in gymnastics too. There was a point before they imploded the system and added difficulty factors that a simple 9.90 meant nothing, and 9.9625 might only mean 3rd.

I expect there will be some effort to prompt a "reset" lest the entire system have to undergo more renovation. The problem will be when "world records" are not broken any more. Maybe just in Olympic years. ;)
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Well, only international competition scores count toward world records. So there won't be a real problem until international scores are inflated as those given at various national championships.

At which point, how will nationals have any room left to inflate their scores? ;)

If there are brilliant performances at the Olympics, there will be PCS in the 9s and maybe a scattering of 10s. But there will have to be a lot of brilliant performances for that to become the standard.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
You don't think Chan's step sequences worth level four? If his was not a level 4, then many others should be at level 1-2. Abbott's PCS are low because he's just not that good.

<snip>

Don't even understand your question. Why or who thinks Canada is different? Are you implying that if a Canadian team win gold, it's because it's in Canada?

Chan's step sequences are worthy of level four. Especially the level four he got in his long. My question is if it's a close situation, would an international caller call it the same way. gkelly says it's more yes/no than GOEs/PCS.

My second criticism, and this is more vague and I understand that is as follows.

a) It seems to me that the huge results for Rochette, Chan, and Dube/Davison are partially predicated on the notion that they've been written off, and the judges want to remind the world what they're capable of. Except they went too far.

b) To me, it than follows that Virtue/Moir, who never lost the top tier contender status weren't overmarked by the same degree as the other three. Their FD score wasn't as huge as expected, for example. Now, looking at the protocols, they got two level threes for their FD (step sequences), whereas at the GPF they got only one - the rest fours. So that closed the gap somewhat. But seriously, based on the general overscoring and that V/M are the best chance for gold (imo), a score above 110 would've been in line with what the rest were garnering. Even their OD 70, which seems larger, was garnered for their first OD this season with all level fours.

c) Rochette's score is ten points clear of the international best: was that the best skate ever in COP? She didn't do a 3-3 combo, not 3a or quad. It wasn't an "all level four" performance. Hell, I think she could still skate that with more attack (as many pointed out, it was very focused on nailing every single thing, as opposed to creating a brilliant whole). Chan had a couple of bobbles AND lower technical content than what we're gonna see from other skaters, and his score is still on par with theirs. Now, we say that we cannot compare scores from different competitions, and we know National scores are different beasts all together. But I still raise my eyebrows here.

d) If they medal is it because they're Canadian? No. I don't believe that in any strictest sense of that logic.

e) Anyway, I'm done beating this dead horse. Sorry to be such a pedant.
 

jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
a) It seems to me that the huge results for Rochette, Chan, and Dube/Davison are partially predicated on the notion that they've been written off, and the judges want to remind the world what they're capable of. Except they went too far.

b) To me, it than follows that Virtue/Moir, who never lost the top tier contender status weren't overmarked by the same degree as the other three. Their FD score wasn't as huge as expected, for example. Now, looking at the protocols, they got two level threes for their FD (step sequences), whereas at the GPF they got only one - the rest fours. So that closed the gap somewhat. But seriously, based on the general overscoring and that V/M are the best chance for gold (imo), a score above 110 would've been in line with what the rest were garnering. Even their OD 70, which seems larger, was garnered for their first OD this season with all level fours.

c) Rochette's score is ten points clear of the international best: was that the best skate ever in COP? She didn't do a 3-3 combo, not 3a or quad. It wasn't an "all level four" performance. Hell, I think she could still skate that with more attack (as many pointed out, it was very focused on nailing every single thing, as opposed to creating a brilliant whole). Chan had a couple of bobbles AND lower technical content than what we're gonna see from other skaters, and his score is still on par with theirs. Now, we say that we cannot compare scores from different competitions, and we know National scores are different beasts all together. But I still raise my eyebrows here.

Every nation has the same so-called inflated scoring for their skaters. But I find many people, esp people on this board, seem to just notice Canadian skaters are getting inflated mark. I can already tell that if any of the Canadian wins gold, bitching and mourning will start on this board.
 

Ravensque

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 31, 2009
Every nation has the same so-called inflated scoring for their skaters. But I find many people, esp people on this board, seem to just notice Canadian skaters are getting inflated mark. I can already tell that if any of the Canadian wins gold, bitching and mourning will start on this board.

ITA..........CD scores at US Nats were inflated big time;)
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Every nation has the same so-called inflated scoring for their skaters. But I find many people, esp people on this board, seem to just notice Canadian skaters are getting inflated mark. I can already tell that if any of the Canadian wins gold, bitching and mourning will start on this board.

a) I'm Canadian. If they win gold and earn it, I'll be at the frontlines pushing back the hoardes of darkness (or something like that).

b) Given that I've pointed out other national examples of overscoring, and given that we've complained and complained about it (see the threads for Russia in particular), I don't think it's fair to make that accusation in general.

c) Unfortunately, the National Events that we see (either live or on Youtube) are the ones we go by. That rules out say Finnish, Swiss etc nationals.
 
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