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Thread: Inflated Scores

  1. #16
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    Thank you.
    Whenever Chan gets high scores, people will auto conclude that he's overscored. They never seem to see that Chan gets good scores on all other elements, the spins, the footwork, the speeds, the choreography etc.

    I wish more people will see the score includes the WHOLE PACKAGE, not just JUMPS JUMPS JUMPS! Can they see beyond the jumps? It's hard to say!
    Chan is not the only skater in the world that has good non-jump elements. And I think some fans get a little carried away and think that Chan is head and shoulders above any other skater in doing these non-jump elements. I love Chan, but the fact that he scored 2 points higher with his free skate than Abbott did (which was a bit overscored already) at US Nats with his respective free skate tells me that Chan was indeed very overscored, period. And 90 for his SP? You've got to be kidding if you don't think that's overscoring.

  2. #17
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    1. Do we think Chan would've gotten that score in international competition? Do we think that another technical caller would've given both step sequences level four? Abbott's PCS might have dropped internationally, but given how awesome he was, I don't think by much (and frankly, we'd be complaining about his low PCS to high heaven - see NHK and GPF threads if you don't believe me).

    2. Is it normal to see inflation at Nationals? Yep. Witness Laura Lepisto: she scored 106.24 for a free program containing one (!) credited triple. Travel over to Switzerland and see Sarah Meier scoring nearly 120 for a performance with three triples. For comparison, Akiko Suzuki landed 7 at the GPF and scored 116. Miki Ando landed four in the same event and scored only .71 points higher than Meier.

    3. So what makes Canada different? Well, imo - two things
    a) Canada's hosting the Olympics. Fairly self explanatory.

    b) It might just be me, but there's a degree of calculation in the scores that bugs me. It almost seems as if the judges are trying to remind the world that Rochette, Chan and D/D are medal contenders (Virtue/Moir's scores by comparison, are quite reasonable in terms of inflation, and no one needs reminding that they're top tier contenders).

  3. #18
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    b) It might just be me, but there's a degree of calculation in the scores that bugs me. It almost seems as if the judges are trying to remind the world that Rochette, Chan and D/D are medal contenders (Virtue/Moir's scores by comparison, are quite reasonable in terms of inflation, and no one needs reminding that they're top tier contenders).
    Didn't Chan, Rochette, and D/D remind the world that they are medal contenders through their skating? All three put in amazing performances - with Joannie and D/D skating the best they have in a very long time. Chan is starting to get back to his form.

  4. #19
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    Yes. But their scores didn't match what I saw, even with Nationally tinted glasses on.

  5. #20
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Yes. But their scores didn't match what I saw, even with Nationally tinted glasses on.
    Well it happened at Russian Nationals, Swiss Nationals, Japanese Nationals, Finnish Nationals, etc. The US Nationals still have two events to go so there could very well be inflation there. If you knock off the 10% of inflation at Canadians the scores are pretty much on par. One has to remember that each of the top skaters hasn't skated like that all year long either - so they are going to be higher than they have received for the season.

  6. #21
    Yeah! Lets get this party started. enlight78's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    Didn't Chan, Rochette, and D/D remind the world that they are medal contenders through their skating? All three put in amazing performances - with Joannie and D/D skating the best they have in a very long time. Chan is starting to get back to his form.
    Personally chan ad D/D skate makes me doubt there medal potential; chan right now looking like he will be out of the top 6; same for D/D; I'm sorry but i feel like canada is kinda setting themselves up with the casuall fan; If they give and identical performances and score about 30 points less theres gonna be a head scratching moment

  7. #22
    Go marry the quad if you love it so much DesertRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Chan is not the only skater in the world that has good non-jump elements. And I think some fans get a little carried away and think that Chan is head and shoulders above any other skater in doing these non-jump elements. I love Chan, but the fact that he scored 2 points higher with his free skate than Abbott did (which was a bit overscored already) at US Nats with his respective free skate tells me that Chan was indeed very overscored, period. And 90 for his SP? You've got to be kidding if you don't think that's overscoring.
    I was not a fan of Patrick Chan. In fact, I thought his SP score was ridiculous, and his happy reaction to it ungracious in the face of such a gift. Then I actually saw his SP and studied the protocols. I was wrong; he wasn't overscored by more than a few points. You know what, yes, he is head and shoulders above any skater in his movement across the ice, at least in this performance. He skates with an old school, elegant and compact kind of carriage, but at about 20 times the speed and complexity. When he's on in that department (and he isn't always, his skates at the recent Skate Canada for example), no one comes close. It's a talent rarer than the ability to land quads, and applicable to far more elements and components.

  8. #23
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    I watched the short program and not only does Chan's straight-line step sequence cover the ice length-wise but it also covers the ice width-wise.

    Can we just get over the fact that the scores are inflated? No one is claiming that they aren't! Even the evil media is making sure that everyone knows they are inflated!!!

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. Do we think Chan would've gotten that score in international competition? Do we think that another technical caller would've given both step sequences level four?
    These are two totally different questions.

    No, I don't think he would get as high scores internationally, but the reason is that I don't think the GOEs and PCS from the judges would be quite as generous.

    If he met the requirements for level 4 step sequences, the callers should give him level 4 no matter who they are or where the competition is taking place. Element levels are really more of a "yes or no" question than components or +GOEs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertRoad View Post
    That's because Abbott skated that much better than he has ever skated. Perhaps it behooves you to actually watch all those skates in question before you declare it a case of overscoring. And really, it's disingenuous to bring up a competition in another country as some sort of justification. "So-and-so is doing it so why can't I" is an excuse that shouldn't be used by anyone past seven. Of course, it doesn't even work for seven year olds.
    All I'm am trying to point out is some posters cannot state that Chan was grossly over marked because he exceeded his personal best and yet turn around and ignore that fact that some other skater also exceeded theirs substantially. We all know there is a tendency to over inflation at National events compared to Internationals. At least no one in either of these events was being given 10's.
    Last edited by sk8rdad; 01-19-2010 at 12:44 PM.

  11. #26
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    So , it 's not a matter of whether it should happen ( I'm sure everyone thinks it shouldn't.) but recognizing that , realistically , it does happen, to a greater or lesser degree , pretty well universally. It's a vicious cycle.

    The question is, what to do about it? There was a possible solution suggested by a group of skating insiders following the Salt Lake meltdown and the infamous foot-tapping world's, that I thought might have some merit. ( I've heard Tracy Wilson explain it a number of times, but haven't heard it mentioned much in the last couple of years.)

    Roughly , the idea would be to have all international judges hired directly by the ISU , and be answerable only to that body, bound to uphold a universal standard. They would have to demonstrate a certain level of expertise to be hired . They would owe nothing to any national federation , and their jobs would be on the line if their performance was poor or seen to be politically motivated.

    Is anything like that still simmering on a back burner, somewhere ?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Chan is not the only skater in the world that has good non-jump elements. And I think some fans get a little carried away and think that Chan is head and shoulders above any other skater in doing these non-jump elements. I love Chan, but the fact that he scored 2 points higher with his free skate than Abbott did (which was a bit overscored already) at US Nats with his respective free skate tells me that Chan was indeed very overscored, period. And 90 for his SP? You've got to be kidding if you don't think that's overscoring.
    I'm sure many skaters have good non-jump elements. I personally think Chan was better than Abbott in the non-jump elements while Abbott had an edge over Chan in the jumps. But you see, it's easy to compare jumps, one landed perfectly, the other shaky etc. But it's not that easy to compare non-jump elements such as speed, the ice coverage, commanding the ice etc.

    And again, what is a fair score for a skater anyway. There's no guide saying, ok, that skate worths 150, anything over is overscored. And it is even harder to compare skaters who were skating in a different competition.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    1. Do we think Chan would've gotten that score in international competition? Do we think that another technical caller would've given both step sequences level four? Abbott's PCS might have dropped internationally, but given how awesome he was, I don't think by much (and frankly, we'd be complaining about his low PCS to high heaven - see NHK and GPF threads if you don't believe me).
    You don't think Chan's step sequences worth level four? If his was not a level 4, then many others should be at level 1-2. Abbott's PCS are low because he's just not that good.


    3. So what makes Canada different? Well, imo - two things
    a) Canada's hosting the Olympics. Fairly self explanatory.

    b) It might just be me, but there's a degree of calculation in the scores that bugs me. It almost seems as if the judges are trying to remind the world that Rochette, Chan and D/D are medal contenders (Virtue/Moir's scores by comparison, are quite reasonable in terms of inflation, and no one needs reminding that they're top tier contenders).
    Don't even understand your question. Why or who thinks Canada is different? Are you implying that if a Canadian team win gold, it's because it's in Canada?

  14. #29
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jettasian View Post
    You don't think Chan's step sequences worth level four? If his was not a level 4, then many others should be at level 1-2. Abbott's PCS are low because he's just not that good.
    Mmm...I think many people would beg to differ to that.

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    Watching on video, I think the two skaters who have the best skating skills in the world right now in terms of using deep edges and complex turns and combinations of edges throughout the programs, including leading into and out of the elements, are Chan and Abbott. They are both that good.

    What I can't tell from the videos is how they compare with each other and with the other top skaters in terms of power, speed, absolute ice coverage.

    The actual Skating Skills marks may vary from performance to performance depending on execution. Same for the other components. And Interpretation especially would be more subject to judges' (or fans') subjective impressions.

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