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Thread: Hersh on Scoring at Natls

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    Hersh on Scoring at Natls

    Feel free to trash him or agree....I think he makes some good points about what happened as well as the the system.

    http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com/...ys-exhibi.html
    Last edited by janetfan; 01-26-2010 at 02:15 PM.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    "This time, the problem was the system, not the judging."


    "While the system has ``artistic'' marks (the so-called ``program components,'' which judges frequently use to prop up skaters they favor; nothing new there), it chops a performance up into so many pieces that the result often makes no sense to live or TV audiences. It is as if one were judging a Monet water lily picture not by the overall impression it leaves but by whether Monet's brush strokes or use of color on each lily conform to some code of painting."



    I think something died in skating on Saturday night.

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    Mirai lost because of UR and edge calls. So what do you propose? That we go back to the old system where skaters won handedly with cheated jumps and flawed technique, which in essence is like rewarding the cheaters (and encouraging more skaters to cheat)?
    Last edited by Figure88; 01-26-2010 at 02:49 PM.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Not necessarily. While I miss seeing 6.0s up on the screen I'm not a dogmatic advocate for the 6.0 system.
    I think under CoP, Nancy Kerrigan would have the OGM over Oksana in 1994. I think that would have been correct. I prefer Oksana's style and I was more moved by her performance. But Nancy was an elegant skater herself. She had a more technically difficult skate than Oksana and she executed the technical elements of her program much better than Oskana. I don't think the artistic difference between the two of them was enough to give Oksana the edge over Nancy. I wish the judges had penalized Oksana more for some of her poorly executed jumps and the fact that she had no jump combinations at all in her free skate except for that weird one she squeezed in at the last minute.
    But I do believe that Mirai's artistry was enough to give her the edge over Rachael. Way more than enough. The gap between the two of them in that area is a canyon. Also the superiority of her spirals and spins. I wish CoP had a better way of reflecting that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    "This time, the problem was the system, not the judging."


    "While the system has ``artistic'' marks (the so-called ``program components,'' which judges frequently use to prop up skaters they favor; nothing new there), it chops a performance up into so many pieces that the result often makes no sense to live or TV audiences. It is as if one were judging a Monet water lily picture not by the overall impression it leaves but by whether Monet's brush strokes or use of color on each lily conform to some code of painting."



    I think something died in skating on Saturday night.
    That feeling has been expressed by more than one poster here.
    Even if I sound pessimistic i don't think that is the case.

    To see there is so much emotion being expressed over the results of the Ladies final at Natls shows there are many who still feel a strong passion for skating.

    I do find it odd that many hear want to silence the dissent.

    Some are up in arms over the fact that I brought to light an old grudge that directly involved one of the coaches and one of the three members of the tech panel.

    I was wrong to try and link it without real evidence but I see no harm in mentioning that there was bad blood and it involved a judging decision over the US Ladies championship.

    After reading Hersh's comments I think it is fair to say the system is in question. Carroll was upset with the tech panel and it has been mentioned by a strong critic of my comments that it is possible the tech panel went easier on Sasha, Ashley and Rachael.

    Anyone who watched the competition might come to that conclusion if they were moved by Mirai's beautiful performance. But it doesn't mean we are right because there are rules.

    I say it is good to discuss this and please don't think for a second skating is still not a great sport and at times a uniquely wonderful performance art.

    Mirai showed us that Saturday night and I intend to stick around and watch her develope into a world champion.
    Last edited by janetfan; 01-26-2010 at 04:03 PM.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    That feeling has been expressed by more than one poster here.
    Even if I sound pessimistic i don't think that is the case.

    To see there is so much emotion being expressed over the results of the Ladies final at Natls shows there are many who still feel a strong passion for skating.

    I do find it odd that many hear want to silence the dissent.

    Some are up in arms over the fact that I brought to light an old grudge that directly involved one of the coaches and one of the three members of the tech panel.

    I was wrong to try and link it without real evidence but I see no harm in mentioning that there was bad blood and it involved a judging decision over the US Ladies championship.

    After reading Hersh's comments I think it is fair to say the system is in question. Carroll was upset with the tech panel and it has been mentioned buy a strong critic of my comments that it is possible the tech panel went easier on Sasha, Ashley and Rachael.

    Anyone who watched the competition might come to that conclusion if they were moved by Mirai's beautiful performance. But it doesn't mean we are right because there are rules.

    I say it is good to discuss this and please don't think for a second skating is still not a great sport and at times a uniquely wonderful performance art.

    Mirai showed us that Saturday night and I intend to stick around and watch her develope into a world champion.
    I guess I was being a little over dramatic. But don't worry. In case you hadn't noticed, I'm an obsessed figure skating fan and it's going to take a lot more than one night where the outcome was, after all, fair by the rules to turn ME off.
    Last edited by Layfan; 01-26-2010 at 03:05 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I guess I was being a little over dramatic. But don't worry. In case you hadn't noticed, I'm an obsessed figure skating fan and it's going to take a lot more than one night where the outcome was, after all, fair by the rules to turn ME off.
    Especially with the Olympics just around the corner!

    Thinking of what we just saw it might be well to remember the judging in Vancouver will be similar.

    No more of 6.0's 50/50 scoring.

    As Hersh unfortuately but correctly noted CoP is heavily weighted towards the technical.

    It feels like Cop is weighted 65/35 in favor of technique.
    That does change when reputation enters into it though

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    Karma,

    Two years ago Nagasu fell and won while Flatt skated lights out and got second. Last year Flatt skated lights out again only to be defeated by 3 triples to her 7 triples. This Year Flatt skated lights out once again 7 triples to Nagasu's 6. Perhaps this is not the best example of Karma.

    Triples is the stop-watch of figure skating (it has always been, unless you are extremely beautiful e.g. Korpi).

    With the way both girls skated either of them could have been named champion and I would have been satisfied. My biggest problem is when two fine programs are so far apart on the score board. To the naked eye(I was on the first row) Nagasu did not seem to cheat any of her jumps. As an audience member Saturday night I actually thought that Nagasu had won.

    The problem goes further than this one competition. The USFSA has the responsibility to send the best competitor to earn a medal at the Olympics next month. Whether we like it or not that competitor comes in the form of Racheal Flatt. Internationally Flatt has performed better than Nagasu. Nagasu faced many problems last year and did not get the opportunity to showcased herself. At this time it is better to have the rock be that national champion than Nagasu who has been downgraded numerous times at international events and risk having the same be done at the Olympics.

    I have a strong feeling that this will force Nagasu to better her jumps and perform even stronger at the Olympics.

    At the Olympics the judging will be a huge problem if Rochette skates perfectly and Yuna does not and wins. If Flatt skates well and does not medal it will not be an international incident most people will shrug their shoulders and say she doesn't have great spins and spirals( how exactly do you measure that?).

    Anyway, I think we are sending two fine young ladies to represent our country and we should not make one or the other feel unworthy of their title.

    Go Racheal, Go Nagasu, you two rock...............

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    He Is Right

    Phil Hersh is absolutely right in this article. First, let me say that the reference to Korpi's appearance is unfortunate. It is denigrating to the other skaters for starters. She isn't scored on her looks. No skater is, in my opinion.

    I was one of those that wrote Phil Hersh and complained bitterly about a system that can allow this kind of skewed result. It is indeed destroying this sport and once the Olympics are over, skating will continue its decline. Frank Carroll was also correct in his comments. The really sad thing is that so many of you don't get it. Reread Mr. Hirsh's article. He allows for a spectacular athletic win, which can trump an artistic performance. There are those instances when someone pulls out all the stops and they deserve the win, despite a lack of artistry. But Rachel's performance was not spectacular. As Evan said, Mirai was lights out better. So yes, Rachel won because of a horrible point system that she and her coach worked to the max. But it was a result that undermined the sport and made people wondering what the heck happened.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kyla2 View Post
    Phil Hersh is absolutely right in this article. First, let me say that the reference to Korpi's appearance is unfortunate. It is denigrating to the other skaters for starters. She isn't scored on her looks. No skater is, in my opinion.

    I was one of those that wrote Phil Hersh and complained bitterly about a system that can allow this kind of skewed result. It is indeed destroying this sport and once the Olympics are over, skating will continue its decline. Frank Carroll was also correct in his comments. The really sad thing is that so many of you don't get it. Reread Mr. Hirsh's article. He allows for a spectacular athletic win, which can trump an artistic performance. There are those instances when someone pulls out all the stops and they deserve the win, despite a lack of artistry. But Rachel's performance was not spectacular. As Evan said, Mirai was lights out better. So yes, Rachel won because of a horrible point system that she and her coach worked to the max. But it was a result that undermined the sport and made people wondering what the heck happened.
    Thanks for your comments kyla.
    I agree with you and think this is one of the better articles Hersh has witten.

    "Flatt deserved systematic victory, but fans deserved an explanation, and skating deserves better than flawed system."

    I am also half-surprised it has drawn so few comments here as I thought his take on this explains many things some of us have been struggling to understand.

    I agree without any doubt at all that under 6.0 Mirai would have been the clear victor with very little dispute.

    Her artistry in both programs was a thing of beauty I will remember for a long time.
    Last edited by janetfan; 01-26-2010 at 07:54 PM.

  11. #11
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Me too, Hersh usually inspires such a passionate response. Oh well.

    I wonder of Evan's heart skipped a beat when he saw his name in the lead of that story. Sure he didn't exactly want to be dragged into this debate. Still, that's what he gets for opening his mouth to a reporter. On the otherhand, maybe he didn't think he was saying anything controversial to Hersh at the time because he was sure Mirai had won.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Me too, Hersh usually inspires such a passionate response. Oh well.

    I wonder of Evan's heart skipped a beat when he saw his name in the lead of that story. Sure he didn't exactly want to be dragged into this debate. Still, that's what he gets for opening his mouth to a reporter. On the otherhand, maybe he didn't think he was saying anything controversial to Hersh at the time because he was sure Mirai had won.
    Evan will be OK because very few thought Rachael won.
    Did you notice on the clip with Mirai's LP that after she finishes they show a shot of Ashley and Rachael?

    They both look stricken, like an arrow was shot through their heart.

    If a picture is worth a thousand words - well their expressions don't need nearly that many.

    It is clear they are both worried and have the look that they just got beaten. Which they did

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Evan will be OK because very few thought Rachael won.
    Did you notice on the clip with Mirai's LP that after she finishes they show a shot of Ashley and Rachael?

    They both look stricken, like an arrow was shot through their heart.

    If a picture is worth a thousand words - well their expressions don't need nearly that many.

    It is clear they are both worried and have the look that they just got beaten. Which they did
    I noticed that while I was watching live. But I don't really take that as proof of much because I've often seen that look from skaters hoping to pull through in a tight competition and then their faces lit up when they realize they won after all. (Sure Brian was a bit worried when Brian skated so well.)
    However, I bet Ashley was pleasantly surprised that she beat Mirai in the LP. And I bet Rachael didn't expect her victory to come with such a decisive margin.

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    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Evan will be OK because very few thought Rachael won.
    I hope so. I really like Evan. But it's not just that he said he thought Mirai had won. It's the way he said it.That Mirai was "million miles" better. Unfortunately for Evan, it's kind of clear what he really thinks about Rachael's skating. :indiff: Bet he'll think twice about sitting among the press next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I hope so. I really like Evan. But it's not just that he said he thought Mirai had won. It's the way he said it.That Mirai was "million miles" better. Unfortunately for Evan, it's kind of clear what he really thinks about Rachael's skating. :indiff: Bet he'll think twice about sitting among the press next time.
    I think Evan has also skated his last competiton before US judges, and will retire after the Olympics, or Wolrds at the latest.

    So i can't see even if he ruffled some feathers that it will be of much concern to him.

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