most Underrated Skater is...?

How soon you guys forget. The most underrated has got to be the pairs team of RGal and RGirl. Sure when they first came on the scene they were the talk of the skating world. Who can forget their inoavative moves, the side by side twisted pretzel spin that featured not only perfectly synchronized spinning ability but also flexibility that even Sasha can't match. The death defying throws....the only pair team to ever throw each other. The jumps..they were the first to do the side by side quad axle not only landed perfectly in unison but prior to the final rotation high fived each other in mid air. The push me pull you spiral sequence ending in their trademark Bulls Eye Charlotte where each twin starts at the opposite end of the rink maintaining the Charlotte position they encircle the rink in opposite directions gaining speed as they near center ice ending in side by side BC spins. Yes, we did get to see the fluff pieces about how they were separated at birth, found each other on the GS forum and began their careers. But I ask you, why are they not on the Campbell's soup can, where are their endorsment deals, their contracts with SOI/COI? Underrated, yes. Forgotten by their fans, never.

Underrated

Marjaana has a right to her opinion. Hope she doesn't mind my voicing a dissenting one... Urmanov didn't deserve to win the Oly gold. Elvis did. As far as his career since then, he appeared on the ice with a 10 foot cape and some idiot judge called that skating and awarded him a World Pro title. Methinks he is the most OVERrated skater.
Linny

Fossi said:

No other lady can say they landed two CLEAN 3/3 combos in competition, but Sarah can. Irina's were cheated and should not have counted
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It was all about Sasha, Sasha, Sasha: will they let her win if she beats Michelle Kwan and Irina? No mention of Sarah. But look who won?

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Ok, a couple of things:

Sarah's 3salchow/3loop combo was not clean, both the jumps were underrotated. Her 3toe/3loop was clean though.

"Irina's were cheated"? She didn't do any 3-3s in SLC, so how can you say they "shouldn't have counted"? Maybe you should check your tape.

Also, I don't remember it being all about Sasha. I remember it being thought of as between Michelle and Irina for the gold, Sasha was still a newcomer. Her and Sarah were battling for bronze, I thought.

Re: Underrated

Linny said:

Marjaana has a right to her opinion. Hope she doesn't mind my voicing a dissenting one...

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LOL, I don´t mind. Besides Urmanov is not a special favourite of mine.

Urmanov didn't deserve to win the Oly gold. Elvis did.

Six judges (including the Canadian one) had a different opinion in 1994 Olympics. Only one judge prefered Stojko.

As far as his career since then, he appeared on the ice with a 10 foot cape and some idiot judge called that skating and awarded him a World Pro title.

LOL, I agree with you. On the other hand the programme to give Candeloro the title next year was not any better, in my opinion.

I´m feeling very proud of Ilia; his winning programmes in Hallmark Pro 2001 were worth the win.

Marjaana

I would like to chime in and say I agree with who(m?)ever said Todd Eldridge. I don't think he got the marks he deserved.

Piel said:

How soon you guys forget. The most underrated has got to be the pairs team of RGal and RGirl. ... Underrated, yes. Forgotten by their fans, never.

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Oh, Piel, I am humbled by your praise! I'm honored to be mentioned in the same thread as these other esteemed skaters: Kulik, Urmanov, Sasha, Sarah, etc. Truly, I blush!

icenut84 said:

Ok, a couple of things:

Sarah's 3salchow/3loop combo was not clean, both the jumps were underrotated. Her 3toe/3loop was clean though.

"Irina's were cheated"? She didn't do any 3-3s in SLC, so how can you say they "shouldn't have counted"? Maybe you should check your tape.

Also, I don't remember it being all about Sasha. I remember it being thought of as between Michelle and Irina for the gold, Sasha was still a newcomer. Her and Sarah were battling for bronze, I thought.

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I don't need to check my tapes at all. I was referring to the GPF '00 where Irina landed two very sloppy, not clean, with no flow 3/3 combos that should not have counted. Not to mention that 3/2/2 combo, or was it a 3/3/2 combo?, at Worlds '01 that was ratified but was a major cheat?

There was a ton of hype for Sasha Cohen at the Olympics. She was all over the press stating she was going to "pull a Lipinski" and ESPN commentators were fooled and stated "will they LET her win if she does well?" It was all about Sasha and all about the hype. Then Sarah rose above it all.
You have a right to your opinion, but please don't question my intelligence and tell me to rewatch tapes. Much appreciated.

Stick to your guns Fossi. Sarah had a reputation of underrotating jumps (like Tara never did!). Unfortunately, that reputation stuck with her as the year 1215 sticks with the Magna Carta.

Sarah jumps clockwise and viewers see the long curve edge on the landing as underrotated because they don't normally see the jump that way. Todd, too jumps clockwise and he also has been cited as not completely doing the landing.

I was at Worlds DC and saw her in practice and in competition, Sarah does not underrotate her jumps. There is never any extra pull on the ice. It's a long curved beautifully executed landing. I couldn't have been any closer to her. Someone started this nonsense when she became a threat to Sasha and Irina.

Every skater underrotates (or over rotates) a jump now and then, but it doesn't mean it happens all the time. It is not like the flutz which some skaters do all the time. Very difficult to correct.

Joe

RealtorGal said:

Mike: Ryan Jahnke, underrated? Well, when a skater finishes last at a GP event and can't land even ONE single triple jump, well, that skater does not deserve our praise, no matter how much potential he may have. It has to be there when it counts. I don't think he's done that yet.:\

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The thing with Janhke is that he has incredible artistic ability. I know that he can't even land a quad yet but the guy has a line on the ice that is to die for. His artistic ability is amazing.

Honestly he is WAY better than Matt Savoie or Johnny Weir could ever hope to be. Savoie is boring while Weir (although loaded with talent) isn't able to do it when it counts (I hope I'm wrong). Plus, Jahnke can skate circles around Goebel, at least in the presentation department.:sheesh:

mike79 said:

Plus, Jahnke can skate circles around Goebel, at least in the presentation department.:sheesh:

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Earlier I would not have imagined saying this ever, but now I can see that Goebel is getting there.... He has improved and has still a lot of time to improve more before the Olympics.

Marjaana

Piel,
The very lack of response by RG1&RG2's former fans on this thread simply proves that you are absoratinglutely right. But like Rgal, I'm simply overwhelmed to even be mentioned on the same thread as Ilia Kulik (screw the rest of them). We definitely haven't had enough good joke threads lately if people missed that one

Back on topic:

lulu said:

Not trying to sound snarky-
but what is everyone's defenition of 'underrated'-obviously it might be different for different posters. Do you mean not get the scores they deserve by the judges, not get the "attention" or respect by the fans? -Just curious to know.

For me a skater can be underrated by the judges: they don't give the marks that the skater deserves.
Then a skater can be underrated by the fans: doesn't get the appreciation and acknowledgement for their skills and talent as much as they should.

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Excellent point, Lulu, plus I think there are other ways skaters can be underappreciated besides the ones you mentioned. I have the feeling that people are nominating different skaters based on different criteria. For example, I chose Kristi because I think her skating was always underrated relative to World and/or Olympic champions before and after her. Her technical abiliities in every aspect of skating were superior, she was amazingly consistent, she had great versatility as a performer both as an eligible and especially as a pro, and kept up her technical abilities and improving her performing ones for a full decade after she won the OGM. Whereas various World or Olympic champions since Kristi have had some technical weak spots (weak edges, slow spins, inconsistency, lack of versatility), Kristi had none. That's how I see Kristi as being underrated, that she should be mentioned every single time great ladies skaters are discussed and not only is she not, but weaker skaters are talked about instead of or before her.

BTW to Joe: Kristi actually only "reigned" for two years as OGM. She won the gold in '92, which was right before they staggered the winter and summer games, which caused the next winter Olympics to occur in '94 when Oksana Baiul won. Kristi also turned pro and started skating with SOI right after she won the OGM--at age 20, for anyone who's interested. But I agree with you that Kristi has a great fan base and was featured in plenty of shows and continues to be. I just don't think she was ever appreciated in a way that was comensurate with her talent and abilities as a skater. JMO.

Also re Sarah and underrotating her jumps: It seems to me that the big brouhaha over Sarah and underrotation was with regard to her 3/3s. True, some people claimed she underrotated her regular triple jumps, like her 3Lutz, which I think is what was actually going on with her flutz, ie, that it was actually due to her Lutz being prerotated. But Sarah is hardly the only top lady to do that and she did improve it. Where I read serious criticism from serious critics was about the underrotation on her 3/3s. Some people claimed she underrotated her 3/3s by as much as 3/4s (and I'm don't mean You-Know-Who as the critic, although she did say that).

But I'm changing my vote from Kristi to ME and Rgal! Compared to Penn and Teller, we don't get no respect
Rgirl

How many years did Kristi compete as a singles skater before going pro? She and Rudi were so loved as a pair team. Do you think that fans held it against her for ending their pairs career?

Piel

Joesitz said:

I was at Worlds DC and saw her in practice and in competition, Sarah does not underrotate her jumps. There is never any extra pull on the ice. It's a long curved beautifully executed landing. I couldn't have been any closer to her. Someone started this nonsense when she became a threat to Sasha and Irina.

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There is no "nonsense." Sarah does underrotate (and sometimes prerotate) her jumps - they have shown her feet in slow-motion on TV many times, showing a clear 1/4-1/2 of a turn on the ice before the actual landing curve materializes. I have seen her cheat the 2nd triple of a 3/3 more than 1/2 (closer to 3/4) when the prerotation is taken into account.

As for the most underrated skater, I would have to agree with Todd Eldredge and possibly Nicole Bobek.

My nominees are...

Brian Orser, though lauded as a great skater, he never got the adulation that either Boitano or Hamilon did. His edges and flow were unsurpassed for consistency in the mens field for a long time in both amature or pro ranks. Twice Oly Silver, numerous World medals including gold and supurb and inventive professional.

Denise Beilmann, though only one Worlds and a Pro title to her, she elevated the bar for women skaters and also kept her techinical skills until her LATE thirties. Her salcow with apache takeoff is a thing of beauty and her flexiblity and spins raised the bar for generations to come.

Bourne and Kratz, though highly decorated and respected, still underated for what they did and how they did it. Should have AT LEAST Two olympic medals and 3-4 World championships. Gave the world a look at what North American Ice Dancing Style could be.

Punsilin and Swallow, great American ice dancers that NEVER got their due until the pro ranks. Great quality and heart to their skating and one of the most undermarked ID pairs in the last 20 years.

Hi Dustin - We'll agree to disagree. From my view, Sarah does not underrotate jumps anymore than a zillion other skaters and in my opinion, Tara won the underrotated title, but nobody said boo about it because she was branded as the Flutz Queen.

What's sad about the few times Sarah did underrotate she was branded in the sense as the only one who has underrotated jumps.

You wouldn't want to talk about flutzes?

Joe

well going off topic from the Sarah Flutz conversation

I agree Rgirl that Kristi has not recieved the same acolades that other US olympic and world medalists have recieved...

and since I'm too lazy to write anymore, and the computer I'm typing at is very slow I'll just add my post here (It is the first post in the thread)

underrated skaters

and obviously some "underrated skaters" are more underrated than others...

I'll agree that Kristi never got all of the praise she deserved. She was so consistent and such a wonderful role model...I really think that her timing was just a bit off. The explosion of interest during the 1994 Olympics really helped to recharge the aura of glory that usually surrounds Olympic champions. Before then, I think there was still a big fan base, but Tonya, Nancy and Lillehammer brought so much attention and many new fans. (Me included!).

As for Sarah and the jumps, I think it is obvious that she often had cheated landings. As for SLC, I've watched both 3/3 combinations in slow-mo several times and can't see that either was underrotated. The 3s/3l was close, but that was the cleanest I had ever seen her complete that combination. The point is really moot. She outskated everyone that night not only with 3/3s but with a fiery charge that no one else could muster.
But honestly, I wouldn't say she is underrated. She was given considerable attention after her Olympic victory. She just didn't have other titles to go with the Olympic Gold to do away with the whole "fluke" debate.

I wouldn't say Nicole Bobek was underrated either. (LOL, in my opinion!). She stole the show at the 1995 Nationals and was the talk of the Worlds in Birmingham. She was given enormous praise for her spiral, dramatic flare, etc. even when she was falling all over the ice in 97 and 98. She was highly respected for her skill and talent...but everyone knew she didn't have the consistent work ethic that was essential. Such a waste! She could have been legendary!

I will say I think that Shizuka Arakawa has been underrated thus far. This season is producing different results...her solid performances are leading to better scores and placements so far. But last year, she really put a lot of heart and work into her skating and it showed. The judges just weren't ready to recognize that. The move to Callaghan was a great idea. She seems to be much more streamlined and better packaged this year. I hope she can dig deep and bring back some of that fire from last year...then the judges (hopefully) will have to take notice.

Kristi, amateur and pro, gave me the most pleasure of any skater ever, even Michelle.

Mathman

Mathman said:

Kristi, amateur and pro, gave me the most pleasure of any skater ever, even Michelle.

Mathman

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WHAT?! Did I hear you correctly? I thought that as far as you were concerned, the sun rose and set with Michelle! Geesh! Just when you think you know someone... they SHOCK you!