Australian Aborigines Object to portrayal of their dances by DomShabs

prettykeys said:

I'm not white.

Click to expand...

I know dear, it says so on your profile. The point that piece was making, I believe, can be applied to anyone who gets riled up about representations of cultures that are not their own.

prettykeys said:

Nor do I consider the Aboriginal dance rip-off "offensive", because you're correct in saying I am not Aboriginal. However, I do think it is stupid and disrespectfully exploitative, and I feel like I can imagine why the Council is offended.

Carry on.

Click to expand...

Why is this dance stupid and exploitative, but not any of the other folk OD's then? Is Belbin and Agosto's OD worthy of criticism from the Moldovan community?

berrycute said:

...it says so on your profile.

Click to expand...

Then you know that she is pretty and smart. :yes:

Australians should get a life!

Being offended is a terrible and debilitating medical condition. The only known cure is the censorship of the offender. Do it for the children.

berrycute said:

I know dear, it says so on your profile. The point that piece was making, I believe, can be applied to anyone who gets riled up about representations of cultures that are not their own.

Click to expand...

Yes, I suppose, but you're not applying that idea correctly in this case. If no one made a fuss about it, I think most people would find the OD a little funny and crude. However, since some representatives of the cultural group that the performance is supposed to be showcasing came out and said they were offended, don't you think it should give you pause?

berrycute said:

Why is this dance stupid and exploitative, but not any of the other folk OD's then? Is Belbin and Agosto's OD worthy of criticism from the Moldovan community?

Click to expand...

I will start by making the same assumption you made of me. It doesn't matter that you are Australian (non-Aboriginal Australian.) In fact, it sets off a tiny red flag. Last I heard, Aboriginal Australians were not exactly considered a mainstream, politically empowered group in Australia; I heard that in some areas they continued to be subject to racism and to be marginalized by other Australians.

Given that I am Canadian, I have heard protests about Native cultural exploitation before by Canadian indigenous peoples. I believe there was some noise around a big sporting event being held here some years ago (was it even a Winter Olympics? I don't remember for sure.) But the point was, was that many of the historical and continuing abuses and injustices inflicted upon them were, on one hand, ignored, while the venue showcased their art and "Canadian pride" in "Canadian heritage."

So this Dance may not be on the same scale, but it sounds like a similar principle. Use what's theirs when it's advantageous to you, but not necessarily do it in a respectful, sincere and/or culturally sensitive manner...

My parents are immigrants and probably carved out a life for themselves as well as for me and my brother that may be more promising and happier than the fate of many Natives in various communities across the country. At one point I was tempted to also say "Stop crying about it and get over yourselves. Some victors of certain wars killed all their rivals." But that was out of ignorance. At least there is a country that is (mostly) autonomous for my ethnic group...

Maybe we should get over ourselves and imagine that other people live in different cultural narratives, histories, and contexts. What's offensive to them isn't going to be offensive to us. For all I care, DomShabs can continue to do what they do and it's not going to bother me. I wouldn't choose to do it, myself, though.

n_halifax said:

it's like someone from another country singing "The Star Spangled Banner" or "O Canada" and getting the words wrong.

Click to expand...

sadly recent 'studies' (yeah we spend money on teh important things in life here in the US) have proven that most of the country doesn't know the words... so it's not a shock when other peoples get it wrong...

shoot when we had our 'open house' at our local census bureau offices in Alaska we had a horrible rendition of it. absolutely embarassing... words weren't even CLOSE.

oxade21 said:

Australians should get a life!

Click to expand...

Being Australian, I agree that certain Australians should get a life. :agree:
My opinion on this may not be popular, but here goes anyway:

Like many indigenous peoples who have suffered generations of oppression or attempted genocide, it can be easy to see discrimination or intended offence where none exists.

Locally, our Aboriginal population seem to immediately pounce upon anything that might be remotely cast as discrimination and use it to again bring up past injustices rather than focussing on the actual issue at hand. That tends to alienate even their most politically correct and sympathetic supporters.

How often are programs inspired by a certain culture or sub-group, without being true to the facts and/or aims of that group? How many lame hip-hop routines or jazz routines offend afficionados, for eg? How many people of asian origin are up in arms about any program based on a Japanese, Chinese or Thai theme?

Come on people (ALL people), get over it !

prettykeys said:

So you mean to say that the Argentine Tango is the definitive version and source of all Tangos? If so, I suggest more reading into the subject.

Tango doesn't really seem like it's any one culture's to "own".

Click to expand...

I'm well aware of what Wikipedia says about tango, thank you very much.

But no matter how much UNESCO sprouts about how tango is the "world heritage of humanity," I would think it is undeniable that Argentinians have more of a claim on saying that they have contributed to the development of tango than many other cultures of the world--such as, say, the Chinese or the Montenegrins. Of course, this does not negate the fact that many other forms of tango exist in their own right. But I nonetheless doubt that many skaters' versions of tango--which often mostly consist of wearing some form of red, sultry glances and various seemingly-random arm movements--fit the description of 'authentic tango', whether it is Finnish tango, tango argentino or tango electronico.

But perhaps the correct sentence should have been, "Wait, does this mean that Argentinians and Uruguayans would also be offended by all those dubious and watered-down "tango" performances we see every year across all disciplines in figure skating?" as the tango also originated from Uruguay.


That being said, this is not an endorsement of D/S' OD. But I think that what people find more objectionable than the actual dance itself are the culturally insensitive costumes.

evangeline said:

That being said, this is not an endorsement of D/S' OD. But I think that what people find more objectionable than the actual dance itself are the culturally insensitive costumes.

Click to expand...

I think so too. Not to mention it's one of the biggest fashion crimes ever commited in FS, almost next to Yagudin's bananas.

schiele said:

I think so too. Not to mention it's one of the biggest fashion crimes ever commited in FS, almost next to Yagudin's bananas.

Click to expand...

I know, it is awful isn't it! But have you seen Khohklova and Novitski's OD outfit? OH. MY. GOD. She's been decoupaged! Fortunately her FD outfit is hot to trot, the best representation of a Firebird I've seen yet! Love the headdress!

Bev Manton, of the NSW council (and she is a member of the Worimi aboriginal group) has written an editorial asking DomShabs to rethink this routine.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/polit...ould-rethink-their-routine-20100121-mnwj.html

She explains at length what is offensive, and why it is offensive, and explains the role of dance and art in aboriginal culture. She concludes:

Again, I don't think this is rocket science. Think how offended you might be if something sacred to you was co-opted by a foreign culture, and used inappropriately.

Click to expand...

She also finds it not in the spirit of the Olympics.=

With that in mind, my understanding is that Domnina and Shabalin intend to perform this dance again in the coming weeks at the European ice skating championships. I would urge them to reconsider.

As to the suggestion that the same routine might be performed at the Winter Olympics in Vancouver in a few months, I'd respectfully remind them that the Olympics has a long tradition of flying above politics, and embracing and respecting all cultures.

Domnina and Shabalin have an opportunity to help ensure that wonderful tradition is honoured by rethinking their performance.

Bev Manton is a Worimi woman from the mid-NSW North Coast. She is the chairwoman of the NSW Aboriginal Land Council.

Click to expand...

I don't see exactly what the argument is about here. There is no possibility of doubt on the question of whether or not the Aboriginal people of Australia are offended by this dance. They have told us that they are.

Are Argentines offended by people doing bad tangos? If they are, they can tell us.

Should people "get a life?" That phrase is always a gratuitous insult that adds nothing to the discussion.

Mathman said:

I don't see exactly what the argument is about here. There is no possibility of doubt on the question of whether or not the Aboriginal people of Australia are offended by this dance. They have told us that they are.

Are Argentines offended by people doing bad tangos? If they are, they can tell us.

Should people "get a life?" That phrase is always a gratuitous insult that adds nothing to the discussion.

Click to expand...

I agree with your last part, it's not a helpful addition to the debate. But my arguement was just because someone gets offended by something, doesn't mean we (or DomShab) should automatically accept that. From what this editorial says, perhaps some of this could be resolved if DomShab just said they weren't trying to be authentic and the dance they were performing was "inspired" by Aboriginal elements. Of course, that doesn't help the program's overall heinousness, but on the level of "offensiveness" it might help, no?

Of course you (and DomShabs) should accept that the aborigines are offended. The question that DomShabs have to settle is what they want to do about it. As I have said before, no one gets to pick what offends another person. To disbelieve someone when they tell you they are offended is to trivialize the person's feelings and to triple the original offense, which may have been innocent and well meaning.

Continuing in the offensive behavior, after having been informed it is offensive is then a deliberate choice to offend.

So, DomShabs have some choices:
1. Ignore the aborigines, who are apparently sending a letter to the Russian ambassador to Australia (so they are indeed very serious). Take whatever consequences there are (if any). Be thought of as ill mannered boors by people who care what the aborigines might think (at best). Be penalized by a judge or two at Olympics, given that one of the requirements of the OD is to attempt to correctly portray a given culture & dance. Indeed, this is a GOE gainer (or loser) on all the elements, if a judge takes it seriously. Maybe have some protest group go after you. Continue to get bad press (and BTW, Reuters is now reporting the aborigines' unhappiness)
2. Apologize to the aborigines and change their costumes following their advice. Avoid the blackface look, which Bev Manton mentioned in her editorial. Remove any moves or gestures which are from dances that women are not supposed to see and replace them with others, if that is possible in the time frame before Olympics.
3. Apologize but make no changes.

dorispulaski said:

entire post

Click to expand...

I'm not getting into this debate. But, I did want to point out that they do have an option 4.

That is very true, and if they could do that would settle all questions.

BTW, the BBC is now reporting the story, and is also quoting the Golden Skate interview, in what they term how D&S researched the program. Then BBC quotes Oksana as saying her dog picked their music.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8471918.stm

When I complained about the various Carribbean dances as looking more like a hollywood version than an authentic, a dear friend (Hockeyfan who no longer posts) said Skate Dance is more about the musical rhythm of the dance than it is about the ballroom dance. I believe that, and no longer complain.

I presume Dom/Shabs is not actually doing the folk dance, but are using the rhythm. This is what choreographers do in big productions, so I am ok with Dom/Shabs. Maybe they should inform the Tribes. I dunno.

I read this Reuter story at Yahoo Japan, reporting that they felt that the choreos of their traditional ritual dance were plagiarized and that this was a "serious cultural blasphemy."

http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20100121-00000550-reu-spo

The term, "plagiarize," is used. Is this a situation where the specific choreos be supposed to be secretive?

I have a friend whose religious practices include dancing. They might get upset if their specific choreos are used without their permisson. But I do not know if this is a relevant example.

I do not know what to think about this yet without learning more about the background.

Joesitz said:

When I complained about the various Carribbean dances as looking more like a hollywood version than an authentic, a dear friend (Hockeyfan who no longer posts) said Skate Dance is more about the musical rhythm of the dance than it is about the ballroom dance. I believe that, and no longer complain.

I presume Dom/Shabs is not actually doing the folk dance, but are using the rhythm. This is what choreographers do in big productions, so I am ok with Dom/Shabs. Maybe they should inform the Tribes. I dunno.

Click to expand...

Still, if someone decided to express the rhythms of African drum music by cavorting about in a gorilla suit, that would not be OK, IMHO.

dorispulaski said:

To disbelieve someone when they tell you they are offended is to trivialize the person's feelings and to triple the original offense, which may have been innocent and well meaning.

Continuing in the offensive behavior, after having been informed it is offensive is then a deliberate choice to offend.

Click to expand...

I concur, and think that is the main point.

Domnina and Shabalin are in a tough predicament. But they could be heros of human-heartedness if they chose option four, and then after the Olympics worked with the New South Wales Land group to get together an exhibition that expressed the music more respectfully.

I don't follow dancing lately. Was it recent when they performed this program for the first time?