Australian Aborigines Object to portrayal of their dances by DomShabs

colleen o'neill · Jan 23, 2010

Fix away, I was being a little bit diplomatic.

They haven't been the only ones to spin , but other teams attempts never seem to work as well , for some odd reason...

Dick Pound ? Yeah, maybe ..would that have been after the judging fiasco in Salt Lake..can't quite remember. But I think he and others were trying to come down hard on Ice Dance..for all the controversy giving the Olympics a black eye.I took it that they wanted the threat to be taken seriously..Hope the ISU can learn to police itself , and figure out when they're taking a step too far.

Mind you the IOC has a few probs of it's own.. (Women's Beach Volleyball)..but minor by comparison.

NatachaHatawa · Jan 23, 2010

Medusa said:
Yeah, but I didn't want to ban anyone from the Olympics for it, nor did I demand apologies or anything.

Don't get me wrong, I am incredibly disappointed that DomShab seem to have done a really bad job in researching their dance. Especially since he enjoys presenting himself as an intellectual. In addition, I don't find the dance very creative or appealing.

But demanding apologies? Demanding them to change the dance? Demanding that they'll be banned from the Olympics? Talking to the Russian ambassador?

This falls under freedom of expression, just like the article I vented about. You can find offensive stuff everywhere, in lots of articles, movies etc. You cannot ban everything that is offensive to some portion of the population. Because then Rushdie would have to be banned. Their were lots of critical voices about "Slumdog Millionaire" when the movie came out (complains about blasphemy, about the distorted presentation of India), it still got a worldwide release, a couple of Golden Globes and basically every Oscar.

DomShab digged their own hole here, they admitted very superficial and limited research, they chose random music, apparently they also didn't even follow the rules that the dance has to be specific to a certain country (when they said that it's not "Australian Aboriginal" but simply "Aboriginal") - it is not in any way close to the culture etc.

So the judges should deduct for the wrong concept, the laughable choreography, the horrific costumes and really dump them in the OD. That is the right course of action, in my opinion. Just don't give them more attention, because they are thriving on it (just read a Russian newspaper article about it this morning).

I completely agree.

D/S weren't insulting aborigines - they were insulting ice-dancing by presenting such a random program. This is a regular problem they have - there programs are just patched.

skatingbc · Jan 23, 2010

I may be wrong, but I was under the impression that Native/Aboriginal dances mean more than dance tend to mean in our Western/European culture? I thought they told stories of family and history and while they they may seem random to an ignorant outsider, they are not in the least. I think our North American culture has a more social link to dance, while their link to dance is so much more than that. I am absolutely blown away that all the research D/S did was do view videos on the internet. Seriously?

Anyways, here's an article with quotes from the CEO of Four Host First Nations, Tewanee Joseph.

"My first reaction is that I feel really disheartened that this took place, particularly given how the indigenous people in Australia feel about it," Tewanee Joseph, CEO of the Four Host First Nations, said yesterday.

"I'd love to meet with the Russian pair, with the skaters themselves. We are going to extend an invitation to them," said Mr. Joseph.

I thought this was interesting as well:

Victor Kraatz, a world champion ice dancer from Vancouver, said he felt the Russians had "decided to go a little bit Hollywood'' in their depiction of the Aboriginal dance and that they had "dumbed down a little bit" the character of the dance.

He knew that Australian Aboriginal leaders were up in arms because he's worked in the past year with Australian ice dancers Danielle O'Brien and Gregory Merriman, who are also doing an Aboriginal dance.

Mr. Kraatz said that while Ms. Domnina and Mr. Shabalin looked up Aboriginal dances on the internet, Ms. O'Brien and Mr. Merriman sought the advice of an elder to ask permission to do the dance, to determine if it could be done without offending anyone, to study the movements and do research.

The Australians won't be competing at the Olympics because they did not qualify.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=27440.html#skaters+native+dance+routine+draws

dorispulaski · Jan 23, 2010

Is this the article those quotes came from? This one has more from Kraatz.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=27440.html

Joesitz (RIP) · Jan 23, 2010

I do think mimicking another country's folklore in a comedic way is tasteless especially if the dance is a way of life. Dom/Shab could easily have selected one from the many folk dances of the Ukraine.

I'm sure it is a Hollywood version and not authentic

mishieru07 · Jan 23, 2010

prettykeys said:
lol.

mishieru, your whole first post struck me as astute. I do have some sympathy for DomShabs (I don't even follow Ice Dance because I'm racist against Ice Dancers) and I don't believe their intentions were negative. But what itches me the most is how some people reacted to the Aboriginals' being offended.

"Hey, look at the Argentinians, unlike those Australian Aboriginals, they are mature/dignified enough not to be offended by all the butchered skating of their Tangos!"

"They should stop being oversensitive ninnies and get over it!"

I would hope that the opinion that matters the most is not how outsiders view the (in)significance of a bad portrayal, but that of the people/culture who are supposedly being portrayed..

Absolutely! I do apologize if I seemed too harsh; my comment was directed more at some of the posters here, who have been arguing that it's of no matter at all if the natives get offended and they should just "shut up and sit down".

Seriously, if the people who's culture you're trying to represent are getting upset, surely something must be VERY wrong. I think they have every right to complain if they feel that their culture has been misrepresented.

I'm not very familiar with Aboriginal culture but I believe that their dances are steeped in spirituality as well. This is probably what's the most offensive: totally disregarding that the dance is viewed as sacred to some and just doing an inaccurate representation, containing offensive elements. It's VERY disrespectful.

I am disappointed that DomShabs don't seem to be intending to make any changes. I do hope that they accept the invitation from the Four Host First Nations and try to see what can be done to do the Aboriginal culture justice.

Off topic: prettykeys, why are you racist against ice dancers?

skatingbc · Jan 23, 2010

dorispulaski said:
Is this the article those quotes came from? This one has more from Kraatz.

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=27440.html

Yes indeed it is! I completely forgot to add the link when I posted. Sorry! It won't let me edit for some reason but here's the link again!

http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-skating/news/newsid=27440.html#skaters+native+dance+routine+draws

prettykeys · Jan 23, 2010

mishieru07 said:
Off topic: prettykeys, why are you racist against ice dancers?

I just don't like Ice Dancing. I'd rather watch Pairs Skating or just "regular" dance. :biggrin:

berrycute · Jan 26, 2010

jcoates said:
Regarding making comparisons of this situation to bad impersonations of British accents, there is one point being conveniently forgotten. Australian Aborigines were almost wiped off the face of the planet. They are rightly sensitive, even hyper-sensitive, because they are trying to preserve as much of their culture as possible after centuries of forced assimilation where their cultural worth was devalued. Last time I checked, Brits are in no danger of losing their culture to the sands of time. Brits have had control over the expression and exporting of their culture. Australian Aboriginal people, by and large, have not. I think that is where a large part of the offense comes from and why some non-Australians may tend to agree with them.

Well, I have no idea what you mean by "bad impersonations of British accents". Ms Zellweger was Oscar nominated for that performance (and British Film Academy Award nominated, too). But I digress...

I am well aware of the struggles of Australian Aborigines, it is a compulsory part of Australian social studies classes. And I STRONGLY disagree with your statement that Aboriginal Australians don't have control over their culture's expression and export. I think you are extrapolating post-Colonial stereotypes broadly without consideration for the realities in Australia, and I, having been born and raised in that country, have never seen any instances of White Australians trying to redefine or shape traditional Aboriginal culture. We recognize it as their own culture, for which they are responsible. And surely this Aboriginal group's objections to DomShab reflect their capacity to exert control on their culture's export. Also, your statement on British control over their own culture is flawed, especially since the term "British" would include the culturally distinct English, Welsh and Scottish groups, and the Welsh in particular have complained of cultural limitations and loss of identity.

Raatkirani · Jan 27, 2010

mishieru07 said:
That's true. But I don't see the Indians up in arms crying foul over Davis/ White's Indian OD. In fact, they've received tremendous support from India. Evidently, it IS possible to have a good OD that doesn't offend the masses (there will always be a few dissidents so we'll ignore that). I mean, I don't recall the Aboriginies being offended by the Aussie dancers' portrayal no? (Have the Spanish ever complained about poor Flamencos though? I know there's a mixed reaction on forums about this year's flamencos. Just curious.)

Well, I'm Indian, and while I love, love, love D/W's OD, I must say I raise my eyebrows at them using modern film soundtrack hits to do what is supposed to be a "folk dance," especially when India has such a rich tradition of authentic folk dances. When I look at D/W's OD, I see the equivalent of a funky ballet being done to a medley of Beyonce hits. Their moves aren't "folk," they're more classical blended with Bollywood, which is no surprise since their consulting choreographer was trained in classical dancing. Maybe I'm being nitpicky, but I would have loved to see more folk dancing than "filmi dancing," and I'm 100% certain D/W would be more than capable of learning folk dance. Sure it's wonderful, but is it really folk? Let's be honest though, the majority of the judges are Caucasian and wouldn't know non-western folk dances if it bit them in the nose. Basically, D/W are doing an ode to Aishwarya Rai and no one's the wiser.

I also think that the majority of Indians watching the dance on Youtube are happy to see popular music played out on the world stage. We love our Bollywood, regardless of who's dancing to it. And there's no faith or religion involved in that medley of film soundtracks. And that's the difference between the Aboriginal dance by D/S and D/W. The Aboriginal dance has its roots in religion and spirituality, while D/W are doing a dance from pop culture. You're unlikely to offend anyone if you do a secular dance as opposed to a religious one.

Hsuhs · Jan 27, 2010

Raatkirani said:
Well, I'm Indian, and while I love, love, love D/W's OD, I must say I raise my eyebrows at them using modern film soundtrack hits to do what is supposed to be a "folk dance," especially when India has such a rich tradition of authentic folk dances. When I look at D/W's OD, I see the equivalent of a funky ballet being done to a medley of Beyonce hits. Their moves aren't "folk," they're more classical blended with Bollywood, which is no surprise since their consulting choreographer was trained in classical dancing. Maybe I'm being nitpicky, but I would have loved to see more folk dancing than "filmi dancing," and I'm 100% certain D/W would be more than capable of learning folk dance. Sure it's wonderful, but is it really folk? Let's be honest though, the majority of the judges are Caucasian and wouldn't know non-western folk dances if it bit them in the nose. Basically, D/W are doing an ode to Aishwarya Rai and no one's the wiser.

That's what another poster said too. And that is how I now know Meryl and Charlie's OD isn't authentical. Nevertheless I love the dance (as a non-Indian fan), because there's a storyline in it, and D/W dance it so well.

Someone in S/Z's group must be having a weak spot for Aishwarya Rai

No surprise, since she's so gorgeous and talented.

Raatkirani · Jan 27, 2010

Hsuhs said:
That's what another poster said too. And that is how I now know Meryl and Charlie's OD isn't authentical. Nevertheless I love the dance (as a non-Indian fan), because there's a storyline in it, and D/W dance it so well.

Someone in S/Z's group must be having a weak spot for Aishwarya Rai No surprise, since she's so gorgeous and talented.

I think every Indian has a weak spot for Aishwarya Rai.

lcd · Jan 27, 2010

The "statement" from the coaching camp is fantastic. The menacing quality of the words combined with the thinly veiled concept that their is hatred/war/sabotage as an underlying motivation is just so :eek:

Actual protests would be a potential avenue for this sport to get media attention.

Bennett · Jan 27, 2010

lcd said:
The "statement" from the coaching camp is fantastic. The menacing quality of the words combined with the thinly veiled concept that their is hatred/war/sabotage as an underlying motivation is just so

Yeah, this coach presents a great imaginative world, in which their team is the axis of rotation of the earth.

dorispulaski · Jan 30, 2010

There is one misconception out there---This year's dance is folk/country. The slash is treated as an 'or'. So long as the dance is typical of the region/country, whether it is old time folk or not, the guidelines say it's OK this year. The important thing is that it not be 'ballroom'. So by that standard, probably D&W are OK I suspect that it's their Indian dance teacher who is a huge fan of Rai! (And maybe Meryl and Charlie are too, by this time)

heyang · Jan 30, 2010

While Davis/White's Indian dance might not be traditional, it is definitely Indian and it's very apparent that they spent a lot of time learning the proper movements and hand gestures. This meticulousness is a sign of respect IMO.

Tonichelle · Jan 30, 2010

heyang said:
While Davis/White's Indian dance might not be traditional, it is definitely Indian and it's very apparent that they spent a lot of time learning the proper movements and hand gestures. This meticulousness is a sign of respect IMO.

From what I remember when "Bollywood" became a dance style on So You think You can Dance, if you don't get the hand motions just right you could do something offensive. So I would agree that it shows a great deal of respect for teh culture their program is representing.

seniorita · Jan 30, 2010

Did they meet with them? Will they change anything?
When this is over can you make me a resume of what they will do at the end , pretty please???

DesertRoad · Jan 31, 2010

Tonichelle said:
From what I remember when "Bollywood" became a dance style on So You think You can Dance, if you don't get the hand motions just right you could do something offensive. So I would agree that it shows a great deal of respect for teh culture their program is representing.

I wonder if D/W went to the same choreographer. Because just like D/W, Nakul Dev Majahan's Bollywood choreography uses modern filmi music but has the dancers do more classical Indian dance moves than you'd find in contemporary Bollywood films. Not that this makes it inauthentic. Bollywood dancing does encompass a wide range and fusion of styles. If D/W stick to the more traditional Indian stuff and eschew the pop and hip hop dancing many modern Bollywood numbers incorporate, well, they're just making sure no one is confused about the national origin of their moves.

dorispulaski · Jan 31, 2010

seniorita said:
Did they meet with them? Will they change anything?
When this is over can you make me a resume of what they will do at the end , pretty please???

When I hear anything, I'll post it here. There are rumors from Russian boards that they will meet with the First Nations' hosts, and that there will be changes to the costumes. Whether these are more than rumors is yet to be seen.

Australian Aborigines Object to portrayal of their dances by DomShabs

colleen o'neill

NatachaHatawa

skatingbc

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Joesitz (RIP)

mishieru07

skatingbc

prettykeys

berrycute

Raatkirani

Hsuhs

Raatkirani

lcd

Match Penalty

Bennett

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

heyang

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

seniorita

DesertRoad

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

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