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Thread: Championship Ladies FS

  1. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Penalties of URs, wrong edge Take-offs, and Falls are all out-of-line, and should be reviewed for more rationalities.

    WETs do not disrupt the program, but they've lost the name of the jump and the counter rotation if they are involved in a lutz or walley.

    URs do not disrupt the program if they do not Fall.

    Falls do indeed disrupt a program.

    ToeAxels, and BodyTurn Toe Loops are weird.
    I really hate the disruption argument many people make. Incorrect technique is an error and should be penalized. Even though mistakes can be estherically pleasing doesn't mean they shouldn't be penalized. Other sports with judged competitions all hand out penalties for incorrect technique, even though the errors may still be esthetically pleasing. In fact, I was watching Caroline skate once with a friend and my friend asked if her difficult variation (read mule kick) gained more points. Because she thought the mule kick looked good, should it not be granted - GOE??

  2. #782
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I though that Rachael and also Christina Gao put on an exhibition of straight backward landing edges. Skaters that get a lot of underrotatons called on them tend to land all their jumps a few degrees short.

    In Mirai;s case, I could see the underroations myself, but she does tempt fate (and an unsympathetic tech specialist) on most of her jumps. If she could take advantage of the spring and height that she gets on her jumps to get those extra few degrees of rotation, then she wouldn't put her scores in the hands of the skater gods (and we wouldn't have anything to argue about )

    Internationally, Rachael does not get much of a GOE boost on her non-jump elements, but she has the levels. As for PCSs, it is amazing how a strong seven-triple performance with a triple-triple boosts the choreography and interpretation scores.

    Both of our ladies have a good shot at top six in Vancouver.

  3. #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    I really hate the disruption argument many people make. Incorrect technique is an error and should be penalized. Even though mistakes can be estherically pleasing doesn't mean they shouldn't be penalized.
    In my opinion, this point would be stronger if the CoP did not penalize some errors harshly and let others go with a wink.

    A Lutz off the wrong edge is not a Lutz. Why should it get any points at all?

    If you fall on a jump, that jump was not successfully completed. It should get 0 points (and -1 for the fall).

    But the CoP does not do that. Instead, it gives out graded penalties for the severity of the error. "e" or "!" or anywhere from -3 to -1 GOE on a flutz, for instance.

    So I think the "degree to which it disrupts the program" is quite a valid way of going aboput determining which errors are worse than others.

    I was watching Caroline skate once with a friend and my friend asked if her difficult variation (read mule kick) gained more points. Because she thought the mule kick looked good, should it not be granted - GOE??
    Did she think it deserved extra points because it looked good, or did she think it deserved extra points because it was a difficult variation?

    The CoP is full of opportunities to get extra points with difficult but ugly variations.

  4. #784
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Not to the ISU judges she isn't. She's been gigged for URs all season.

    Mirai may have higher jumps, but if her triples are re pre-rotated or under-rotated she should not receive technical credit as triples, and her scores are going to be affected----and that's as it should be.

    Flatt's jumps may not move you, but they are fully rotated and she gets full credit for them. ISU and USFS judges don't take into consideration "janetfan"'s personal prejudices.
    That is fair just as I don't think the judging is always so accurate.

    Earlier, it was mentioned that Mirai is pretty, etc........

    I want to say that I think Miki is one of the prettiest skaters I have ever seen.
    I prefer Akiko's skating over Miki this season and think Akiko beat Miki at the GPF just like she beat her at Japanese Natls.

    I am not favoring Mirai because I think she is pretty but because I think her skating is beautiful and superior to Flatt.

    I also can't help but love the great spirit and joy Mirai brings to the ice. It is natural as opposed to so many others showing us choreographed smiles and fake dramtic expressions.

  5. #785
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    I'm just happy that Mirai goes to the Olympics!!! I don't care she got first or second. She'd been there before, so what's the big deal. It's nice to have both girls go into the olympics as US champion, which would boost their confidence.

    I watched the vedios. Apparently Rachael had a slower tentiative skate and looked laboured, while Mirai had speed, joy and attack all the way. I do prefer Mirai's performance. Hopefully both girls pay more attention to their weaknesses in the following three weeks and have their skate of life in the olympics!

  6. #786
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Not to the ISU judges she isn't. She's been gigged for URs all season.

    Mirai may have higher jumps, but if her triples are re pre-rotated or under-rotated she should not receive technical credit as triples, and her scores are going to be affected----and that's as it should be.

    Flatt's jumps may not move you, but they are fully rotated and she gets full credit for them. ISU and USFS judges don't take into consideration "janetfan"'s personal prejudices.
    So Janetfan disagrees with the judges. Why does that make you so angry? It's a forum, that's allowed. It's not like her so-called "prejudices" are based on any dislike for the person that Rachael is. From what I gather, she is arguing that even IF Mirai underrotated 3 jumps, the rest of her skating was so superior to Rachael's that she should have won. It's a valid argument. I agree. Rachael may land difficult jumps. But she does nothing else very well that I can see. The judges disagreed and I can definitely see their argument. But why can't we disagree?

  7. #787
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    That is fair just as I don't think the judging is always so accurate.

    Earlier, it was mentioned that Mirai is pretty, etc........

    I want to say that I think Miki is one of the prettiest skaters I have ever seen.
    I prefer Akiko's skating over Miki this season and think Akiko beat Miki at the GPF just like she beat her at Japanese Natls.

    I am not favoring Mirai because I think she is pretty but because I think her skating is beautiful and superior to Flatt.

    I also can't help but love the great spirit and joy Mirai brings to the ice. It is natural as opposed to so many others showing us choreographed smiles and fake dramtic expressions.

    Akiko and Mirai are for some reason given no slack by the judges. At SC, Akiko's SP layout was:

    3lz-2t --> "e" call and -2 GOE
    3f --> -2 GOE again (wasn't that bad)
    2a -->

    in the LP:

    3lz-2t-2lo --> "e" and -1.80 GOE
    2a-3t< --> popped the axel into a single, -.06 GOE
    3lo --> popped
    3f
    3lz --> "e" and -3.0 GOE
    3lo-2a seq
    3s

    So in the GPF Akiko changed her jump layout.

    SP:
    3f-2t --> no edge call, 0.40 GOE
    3lo --> UR but not a jump you can get an edge call on
    2a

    LP:
    3f-2t-2lo --> no edge call, no negative GOE
    3t-2a seq --> no downgrade
    3lo
    3f
    3lz --> "!" call, -1.80 GOE
    3lo-2a seq
    3s

    Akiko won bronze at the GPF, so I believe what she did was smart. What Mirai should do if she wants to stop letting the judges screw her over.

    current layout:
    3lz-2t-2t --> "!" call, would be "e" internationally, but smart move changing the 2lo to a 2t after getting the 2lo UR at SC
    2a-3t --> UR on the 3t, also got a UR call on the 3t at CoC
    3f
    3lz --> no edge call at nats but UR
    3lo-2a seq --> smart move after her 3lo-2t was UR at SC (the 2t)
    2a
    3t --> UR here, not usually a problem

    new layout she should use so the judges won't bring her down:
    3f-2t-2t --> no "e" call
    3t-2a seq --> no UR on 3t, can get good GOEs
    3f
    3lz --> if it's not in combination she has a better shot of not getting an "e" call
    3lo-2a seq --> like she's already changed it, good move
    2a
    3t

    If she does this, she will just eliminate many ways the judges can dock her. Ashley, Akiko, and that little girl Kanako all do sequences and I think it's a good idea now that 3-3s are being downgraded left and right. Also, why do two lutzes if after the edge call it will be worth less than a 3loop? She should do two flips and only one lutz. If she finds a way to get around what the judges are sometimes brutally calling her out on, they won't be able to do it and she should do better.

  8. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    [Janetfan]is arguing that even IF Mirai underrotated 3 jumps, the rest of her skating was so superior to Rachael's that she should have won. It's a valid argument. I agree. Rachael may land difficult jumps. But she does nothing else very well that I can see. The judges disagreed and I can definitely see their argument. But why can't we disagree?
    Sorry, but you have no understanding of CoP if you (and Janetfan) think it's allowable to UR 3 jumps and win anyway based on spins and spirals.

    Look at the protocols and you can see where Mirai lost points by URing.

    IF SHE HAD ROTATED ALL HER JUMPS, MIRAI WOULD HAVE WON.

    But Mirai did not rotate all her jumps, and she lost about 15 points in the process, so she did not win.

    Get over it.

  9. #789
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    Gotta say. I don't really like rachels skating. She is so unrefined... Body lines and positions are a mess. I loved mirai out there, still has jump issues but body lines and positions are much nicer.

    I do not feel Rachel should get the high pcs she does. Just my opinion

  10. #790
    Always supporting skaters :) 100yen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hongligl View Post
    I watched the vedios. Apparently Rachael had a slower tentiative skate and looked laboured, while Mirai had speed, joy and attack all the way. I do prefer Mirai's performance. Hopefully both girls pay more attention to their weaknesses in the following three weeks and have their skate of life in the olympics!
    I definitely agree. Mirai skated with more joyful "abandon" and in that way was much more pleasurable to watch. Rachael may be consistent, but when Mirai nails it, she nails it hard.
    Good luck to them both

  11. #791
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Sorry, but you have no understanding of CoP if you (and Janetfan) think it's allowable to UR 3 jumps and win anyway based on spins and spirals.

    Look at the protocols and you can see where Mirai lost points by URing.

    IF SHE HAD ROTATED ALL HER JUMPS, MIRAI WOULD HAVE WON.

    But Mirai did not rotate all her jumps, and she lost about 15 points in the process, so she did not win.

    Get over it.
    I accept that Mirai under-rotated her jumps. (I guess Frank Carroll is questioning the call on two of the jumps but I'll go with the judges for now.) I accept that is the reason she did not win. However, I think Rachael should be penalized more harshly than she is for having awful spins and awful just about everything except for jumps. If CoP doesn't do that then I wish it would.

    AND YOU CAN SHOUT AT ME IN ALL CAPS ALL YOU WANT but I think this discussion is interesting and I'll continue to have it no matter how many times you tell me to "get over it."

  12. #792
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatefancan View Post
    I do not feel Rachel should get the high pcs she does. Just my opinion
    PCS scores are pretty much geared to the Skating Skills mark. When a skater is able to land 7 triples in a clean FS and achieve high levels (L4 and L3) in the non-jump elements, the SS mark is going to be pretty high, and her other component marks will be near or at the same level.

  13. #793
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    PCS scores are pretty much geared to the Skating Skills mark. When a skater is able to land 7 triples in a clean FS and achieve high levels (L4 and L3) in the non-jump elements, the SS mark is going to be pretty high, and her other component marks will be near or at the same level.
    I just don't understand how Rachel gets L4 or L3 in spins and spirals. But if someone wants to explain it to me, great.

  14. #794
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    One thing that hurt Ashley alots was, her habit of 2 footings the jumps. She had great speed, high and rotation, but somehow she always seem to have the "lazy" free leg that always slightly touch down or brush the ice. These -GOE cost her the second Olympics spot, as well as the fall on the 3Lz. She should have done the 3lo and avoid the edge call.

    Marai, she sould have score higher. Her PCS mark should be at least 2-3 points, higher than Flatt. The order of PCS mark should have been 1) Nagasu 63-64 range 2) Wagner 62+ and 3) Flatt 59-60. Her 2A+3T, second jump was underroated, but her 3Lz looks clean.

    As for Flatt, she won it fair and square, and deserve her high TES score, but highest PCS mark on both short and long. come on!!

  15. #795
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I just don't understand how Rachel gets L4 or L3 in spins and spirals. But if someone wants to explain it to me, great.
    Levels are all about how many revolutions a skater holds the spin and how many positions she can get into. A good chreographer/coach can insure that a skater gets those levels. Of course it is up the the skater to make sure they are holding the spin for long enough and getting into the positions with ease.

    Racheal's spins are rather slow and some of her positions are not very pretty. This is addressed in the GOE or grade of execution. But in Racheal's (and most skaters cases) as long as the skater is not visibly struggling with the spin and they make it look reasonably easy, they will get a positve GOE. Plushenko has the same issues, but manages to get the levels and positive GOEs in many cases.

    A skater like Mirai or Alissa gets the high levels and very good GOE's, but honestly the difference is not enough.

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