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Thread: Championship Ladies FS

  1. #796
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Sorry, but you have no understanding of CoP if you (and Janetfan) think it's allowable to UR 3 jumps and win anyway based on spins and spirals.

    Look at the protocols and you can see where Mirai lost points by URing.

    IF SHE HAD ROTATED ALL HER JUMPS, MIRAI WOULD HAVE WON.

    But Mirai did not rotate all her jumps, and she lost about 15 points in the process, so she did not win.

    Get over it.
    I am over whatever it is you are imagining .
    I have seen the LP several times and agree with Carroll. The urs were bogus.

    I only see one not three. In fact, it is easy to see Mirai had the cleaner jumps.

    It is only a matter of watching as opposed to be being a blind follower of Speedy's "expert" tech caller.

    Earlier this season Jenny Kirk said the same thing, and I take her word over most posters at GS. Listening to Scott call the program he only mentioned one possible ur - the last jump. Scott also said Flatt had a messy jump too. So they each had a less than stellar jump. For the rest of the jumps Mirai's were better.

    Despite the fact that their pcs were a virtual tie I found Mirai superior in most of the pcs. I did not think it was a tie or even close. Far from close actually.

    This is just a major and total difference of opinion. I feel OK knowing many other fans here feel the same way.

    Chuck is right, it is time to get over it. I will support both Ladies in Vancouver but will naturally enjoy Mirai's skating more.
    I do hope they both can skate well and enjoy their Olympic experience. I suspect Mirai will have another one in 2014 but doubt that Flatt will so I particularly hopes she enjoys it.

    I admire Rachael, think she is a terrific and accomplished young lady. I am just not a fan of her skating.

  2. #797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    I accept that Mirai under-rotated her jumps. (I guess Frank Carroll is questioning the call on two of the jumps but I'll go with the judges for now.) I accept that is the reason she did not win. However, I think Rachael should be penalized more harshly than she is for having awful spins and awful just about everything except for jumps. If CoP doesn't do that then I wish it would.
    You have to understand that there are technical requirements not only for the jumps but for all the other elements as well. The technical team determines the level of difficulty for each non-jump element, and then the judges decide how well the element was performed by assigning Grade of Execution (GOE) ranging from -3 to +3.

    Rachael's 3 spins were rated L4, L4 and L3 because she included all the positions and rotations required to reach those levels. Her spiral was rated L4 because she performed all the necessary positions required and held them for the length of time prescribed. She didn't get high GOE (mostly 1s and 0s) on the spins and spiral, but she didn't receive any negative GOE, either; unless there is a huge bobble or fallout, no penalty is called for. You may not like Rachael's spin and spiral positions compared to Mirai's, but then Mirai gets much higher GOE (mostly 1s and 2s and a few 3s) on those elements than Rachael does, so the scoring is quite equitable.

    Rachael's footwork section was rated L3 (which is difficult to get) and in this area, she got higher GOE (mostly 2s) than Mirai (who also got L3 but mostly 1s in GOE) because Rachael had more turns and more continuous movement of the head and upper trunk than Mirai did.

  3. #798
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    Levels are all about how many revolutions a skater holds the spin and how many positions she can get into. A good chreographer/coach can insure that a skater gets those levels. Of course it is up the the skater to make sure they are holding the spin for long enough and getting into the positions with ease.

    Racheal's spins are rather slow and some of her positions are not very pretty. This is addressed in the GOE or grade of execution. But in Racheal's (and most skaters cases) as long as the skater is not visibly struggling with the spin and they make it look reasonably easy, they will get a positve GOE. Plushenko has the same issues, but manages to get the levels and positive GOEs in many cases.

    A skater like Mirai or Alissa gets the high levels and very good GOE's, but honestly the difference is not enough.
    Thanks! This is very helpful to me.

  4. #799
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    You have to understand that there are technical requirements not only for the jumps but for all the other elements as well. The technical team determines the level of difficulty for each non-jump element, and then the judges decide how well the element was performed by assigning Grade of Execution (GOE) ranging from -3 to +3.

    Rachael's 3 spins were rated L4, L4 and L3 because she included all the positions and rotations required to reach those levels. Her spiral was rated L4 because she performed all the necessary positions required and held them for the length of time prescribed. She didn't get high GOE (mostly 1s and 0s) on the spins and spiral, but she didn't receive any negative GOE, either; unless there is a huge bobble or fallout, no penalty is called for. You may not like Rachael's spin and spiral positions compared to Mirai's, but then Mirai gets much higher GOE (mostly 1s and 2s and a few 3s) on those elements than Rachael does, so the scoring is quite equitable.

    Rachael's footwork section was rated L3 (which is difficult to get) and in this area, she got higher GOE (mostly 2s) than Mirai (who also got L3 but mostly 1s in GOE) because Rachael had more turns and more continuous movement of the head and upper trunk than Mirai did.
    Thanks for this too. I'll watch out for this next time - especially Rachel's footwork. I don't really enjoy Rachel's footwork that much but I guess from the perspective of CoP it is stronger than Mirai's. I respect CoP for trying to come up with an objective way to judge all of these elements. And I actually like that it dings for URs. and especially Flutzes. I just am torn about whether the sport is better off with it. I personally like what it's done to the footwork sequences. I know some say it's become too frenzied but I like it. I don't like what it's done to spirals. I really think that precious few skaters can do three positions nicely. Mostly it creates an ugly moment in usually otherwise good programs. The only way for that too change is if only skaters with bodies like Sasha's and Alissa's get into skating. But then figure skating wouldn't be figure skating. One of the things I've always liked about figure skating versus ballet and even versus gymnastics is that women with vastly different body types can excel at figure skating.
    I think Rachel's program would be a lot better if she weren't forced to do spirals that make her look like she's hurting. And she's not the only one.

  5. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I am over whatever it is you are imagining .
    I have seen the LP several times and agree with Carroll. The urs were bogus.

    I only see one not three. In fact, it is easy to see Mirai had the cleaner jumps.

    It is only a matter of watching as opposed to be being a blind follower of Speedy's "expert" tech caller.

    Earlier this season Jenny Kirk said the same thing, and I take her word over most posters at GS. Listening to Scott call the program he only mentioned one possible ur - the last jump. Scott also said Flatt had a messy jump too. So they each had a less than stellar jump. For the rest of the jumps Mirai's were better.

    Despite the fact that their pcs were a virtual tie I found Mirai superior in most of the pcs. I did not think it was a tie or even close. Far from close actually.

    This is just a major and total difference of opinion. I feel OK knowing many other fans here feel the same way.
    The fact is you are NOT a technical specialist. You are not a figure skating professional (most if not all of the techs are former skaters or coaches or both, and all have received extensive training as tech team members). You do not have access to the camera angles and replay capabilities that the technical team does. Your opinion as to whether the jumps were UR is irrelevant.

    The fact that ISU tech teams for the past two years have found Mirai's programs full of URs lends further credence to the USFS tech team's assessment.

    If US Nationals was an exhibition, then Mirai might well deserve a first placement. But US Nationals is a figure skating competition and there are technical rules and standards that must be met. Mirai is a lovely skater, but technically, she doesn't meet the standard when it comes to her jumps.

    As for Frank Carroll's complaints about the URs, of course he will complain. He complained about Evan's score in the men's competition as well. But Carroll is hardly an unbiased observer. He wanted Mirai to regain her US Championship under his tutelage because that would be a feather in his cap. So of course he's going to gripe. That doesn't make him right.

    You don't see Mirai saying she was robbed----because she knows she wasn't.
    Last edited by chuckm; 01-24-2010 at 08:35 PM.

  6. #801
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Eyes View Post
    I just watched Mirai on NBC again. I'm not buying the URs. Maybe on ONE jump, but how can that possibly outweigh the stronger spin positions, spirals, and other program elements? To give Rachael Flatt 15+ points over Mirai? Please.

    If I were Frank Carroll I'd be ticked at the bias against his skater.

    Either way, please for love of all that is holy, someone get Rachael to stop doing that one ugly spin in her program, where she lifts up one leg and then the other. Its hideous.
    Thanks God Im not the only one who noticed that spin!

  7. #802
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post

    You don't see Mirai saying she was robbed----because she knows she wasn't.
    The fact is (what fun to say that ) that you do not know what Mirai is thinking.

    The fact is you believe whatever Speedy's tech callers decide is a good or bad jump and i dont.

    The fact is they have been known to make mistakes.

    The fact is Carroll knows more than you do.

    The fact is saying "the fact is" is not convincing and proves nothing.

    Have a good evening. Thanks for some of your comments which I enjoyed and found informative.

  8. #803
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    NBC JUST showed slow-mo of two of Mirai's jumps. They were definitely UR.

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    Rachael's spins may not be particularly appealing, but they fulfull the CoP requirements for level and the judges do not find them lacking.

    I never liked Irina Slutskaya's spins, but I understood that at the time they met the requirements that were in place and they added to her marks.

    I find Emily Hughes' spins and spirals horrid because she displays the least attractive parts of her anatomy, but they do deserve the levels and GOEs they get.

    Pretty is not necessarily synonymous with "better". Some of Mirai's jumps are pretty, but they are unfortunately for her, technically deficient.

  10. #805
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    The fact is (what fun to say that ) that you do not know what Mirai is thinking.
    But I sat directly across from the KnC and saw her face light up with joy when her score was announced and she was second.

    The fact is you believe whatever Speedy's tech callers decide is a good or bad jump and i dont. The fact is they have been known to make mistakes..
    Where is the evidence of these 'mistakes'? You seem to be saying that all technical teams are bad, evil people who don't let your favorite skaters win.

    The fact is Carroll knows more than you do.
    Of course he does!

    But that doesn't mean that Carroll is in more possession of the truth about the URs than the three members of the technical team.

    The fact is saying "the fact is" is not convincing and proves nothing.
    You have not provided a shred of evidence that any of your assertions about the URs is true.

  11. #806
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    Quote Originally Posted by R.D. View Post
    NBC JUST showed slow-mo of two of Mirai's jumps. They were definitely UR.
    Thank you.

  12. #807
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Rachael's spins may not be particularly appealing, but they fulfull the CoP requirements for level and the judges do not find them lacking.

    I never liked Irina Slutskaya's spins, but I understood that at the time they met the requirements that were in place and they added to her marks.

    I find Emily Hughes' spins and spirals horrid because she displays the least attractive parts of her anatomy, but they do deserve the levels and GOEs they get.

    Pretty is not necessarily synonymous with "better". Some of Mirai's jumps are pretty, but they are unfortunately for her, technically deficient.
    Doesn't it bother you that CoP rewards "horrid" spirals? I haven't paid that much attention to Emily's spirals. But from they way they seem to strike you it seem like you even want to look away while she is doing them. Something wrong with a system that rewards moves that make fans cringe.

  13. #808
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    Looking at the protocols, those URs REALLY hurt Mirai (obviously!). Her base value was then 12.76 points lower than Rachael's start value. Without the URs, her base value would've raised another 10 points at least. Given she received an addition 6 points in GOEs, one could speculate without URs that would add another point or two on +GOEs. So, without URs, Mirai most likely would've beaten Rachael by around 2 points.

    ((I'm guessing TES would've been 70.71 and even in PCS marks stay the same, 61.78, she'd get a 132.49 for the LP and the Gold!))

    But even if she only was hit with one UR (the rather obviously UR 2nd 3toe) instead of with three URs, she'd still be 2nd overall, and also would've been 2nd in LP.

    Rachael had the advantage of an extra triple (attempted 7 triples to Mirai's 6) s her sloppy landing in the 3/3 is more forgivable. Mirai had the lead in spins and spirals, Rachael the footwork. But Rachael neailed it down by her smart jump layout and solid jump technique.

    Just for the record...I was rooting for Mirai and thoroughly enjoyed her performance more than any of the others. I wanted her to win, and thought when I saw her over joyous reaction, that she had. But looking at the protocols, I understand why Rachael won and think the judges got it right.

  14. #809
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    All I know for sure is that

    ...even with all those downgrades I would love to watch Mirai's wonderful LP over and over again whereas I will probably never EVER replay rachael's LP.
    I think this surely tells something.

  15. #810
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I have seen the LP several times and agree with Carroll. The urs were bogus.

    I only see one not three. In fact, it is easy to see Mirai had the cleaner jumps.
    Actually, if you watched the broadcast on NBC this afternoon, you would have seen where they did closeup slow motion of Mirai's 3 downgraded jumps and you can clearly see that she under-rotated all 3 of them. She was penalized for 3 cheated jumps . . . that is the way of sport.

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