Championship Ladies FS

[FlattFan]

huh? I thought you are supposed to land them backwards?

I meant backward of the entrance position.
There's a guy on the forum who is studying all the jumps with his high tech camera. Maybe he should post a picture of mirai landings

[miki88]

I think the USFSA wanted Rachael to win and used Mirai's history of URs to do that. I can't be sure, but as far as I could tell Mirai should have only had one downgrade, on the last 3t, and that was even borderline. the 3lz was definitely fine. I will say that all of Rachael's jumps (save the 3t on the 3f-3t which was borderline) were definitely clean and maybe even over-rotated. Her lutz is also definitely not flutz so I'm not really mad she won, just more mad that Mirai got all those downgrades.

But hey, the judging is a lot more fair then last year when Alissa won with a huge margin and actually did 3 triples (fell on one and doubled the other two). Mirai's URs are better than before but the tech panel screwed over everyone except Rachael and Ashley and it's not the first time we've seen nearly perfect jumps downgraded. Yuna at the GPF? Why do you think Miki never does 3lz-3lo anymore even though she does it beautifully in practice all the time? Fear of downgrades.

That's why downgrades should be weighted less, because it creates a psychological block for the skater to the point that they won't attempt it in competitions anymore. (what happened to Miki and Mao) I am worried about Mirai's trend of downgrades, because it takes time to fix them and even if she fixes them, she may develop a psychological block about them since she would likely get URs a lot.

[Olympia]

I totally, agree, R.D. I hate this nitpicking aspect of CoP. I thought it when Yuna Kim was given a UR call at GPF, and think it now with Mirai's UR calls. This does nothing but cause great skaters to doubt themselves and their entire jump technique, and makes them really tentative and nervous when they go out on the ice. And all these UR calls for Mirai are definitely going to influence the international judges negatively against her at the Olympics.

I think CoP nitpicking is the major reason for Mao's recent troubles. They took one of the best jumpers in the world, one of the only ladies who can do a triple axel, and made her so depressed and insecure that she keeps falling apart. If you're always worried about clean triples getting downgraded, how can you focus on skating a good program?

I think skaters should be rewarded for clean, artistic, and exciting programs. I don't even care about jump entrance edges that much. For example, a 2004 Malaguena program from Sasha Cohen is just so much better impact wise than a short program from Elena Sokolova, even if Sasha does flutz and Elena doesn't. And somehow, CoP has to find a way to take this into account.

I couldn't say it better. We've all talked about how the CoP alienates viewers and maybe keeps new fans from coming to skating--and that's a problem, definitely--but your post addresses something equally disturbing: what this system does to skaters. This is a profound problem with CoP. Someone like Mao Asada is a treasure, and a system that doesn't reward her needs some sort of re-evaluation. Skating is certainly is a sport, but it's also an art, and a performance art at that, and if this is not taken into consideration, why not just take away the music and have a jump contest. Skating isn't track and field, and it never will be.

[aftertherain]

I think falls and sloppy landings should be more heavily penalized than downgrades.

I disagree. I think they should be equal.

[Figure88]

That's why downgrades should be weighted less, because it creates a psychological block for the skater to the point that they won't attempt it in competitions anymore. (what happened to Miki and Mao) I am worried about Mirai's trend of downgrades, because it takes time to fix them and even if she fixes them, she may develop a psychological block about them since she would likely get URs a lot.

Instead of developing a psychological block about certain jumps, Mao should take the time to fix her UR and edge problems like Flatt did. I asked before why should the whole system be changed to accommodate a select few number of skaters? Skaters should be skating in compliance with the system, not the other way around. I'm tired of this whole CoP argument which is usually started by those fans who have ulterior motives because they think their favorites aren't winning under the current system and not likely because of genuine concern for the fairness or integrity of the judging system.

[nevergonnadance]

In one article Frank Carroll is said to disagree with two of Mirai's downgrades.

[Layfan]

In one article Frank Carroll is said to disagree with two of Mirai's downgrades.

Really? Do you have the link?

[chuckm]

What the anti-Flatt crowd is espousing is that Nagasu's URs should be overlooked because she is so graceful and pretty. But figure skating is a sport and as such, the technical rules must be applied to every skater.

Beautiful spins and spirals are great, but that isn't all skating is about. Mirai's spins and spirals get higher GOE from the judges than Rachael's, even though they both attain the same technical levels. It only stands to reason that technically correct jumps should be rewarded with the correct base value and higher GOE than underrotated/pre-rotated jumps.

If Mirai had rotated all of her jumps, she would have beaten Rachael. But I can't think of a competition in the last two years where Mirai has rotated all of her jumps. It's a chronic problem with her, and one that she has to work on.

[miki88]

Instead of developing a psychological block about certain jumps, Mao should take the time to fix her UR and edge problems like Flatt did. I asked before why should the whole system be changed to accommodate a select few number of skaters? Skaters should be skating in compliance with the system, not the other way around. I'm tired of this whole CoP argument which is usually started by those fans who have ulterior motives because they think their favorites aren't winning because they don't benefit or are penalized by the current system.

As far as I know, I think Mao has been trying to fix those problems for a long time. What I am trying to say is that the psychological block remains even when the issue is technically fixed. Also, this argument has been discussed by commentators, so it's not just started by fans. It's not that skater shouldn't get downgrade deductions but there should be more of a balance between the technical and artistic elements of the skating, which I did not see reflected in Mirai's scores.

[Joesitz]

They are up at nbcolympics.com

Regardless of the UR's or not, Mirai should have destroyed Rachael in the PCS and that didn't happen. I'm fine with her being second if the URs were there, but the PCS is frankly a joke.

I'm not joking...... Please explain what is the meaning of the PCs? I am aware of the descriptions used in each of the 5 categories but performance is scattered about and not the same meaning as the 6.0 system The "P" in the PCs is forProgram and not for performance.

Sad for Mirai and me because I really preferred her performance to Rachael.

[seniorita]

thank you imaginery

[Dark-Eyes]

I just watched Mirai on NBC again. I'm not buying the URs. Maybe on ONE jump, but how can that possibly outweigh the stronger spin positions, spirals, and other program elements? To give Rachael Flatt 15+ points over Mirai? Please.

If I were Frank Carroll I'd be ticked at the bias against his skater.

Either way, please for love of all that is holy, someone get Rachael to stop doing that one ugly spin in her program, where she lifts up one leg and then the other. Its hideous.

[janetfan]

I just watched Mirai on NBC again. I'm not buying the URs. Maybe on ONE jump, but how can that possibly outweigh the stronger spin positions, spirals, and other program elements? To give Rachael Flatt 15+ points over Mirai? Please.

If I were Frank Carroll I'd be ticked at the bias against his skater.

Either way, please for love of all that is holy, someone get Rachael to stop doing that one ugly spin in her program, where she lifts up one leg and then the other. Its hideous.

ITA. I found portions of our new champions program comical and her awkard movements and positions are simply impossible to enjoy.

It was also clear to me that Mirai was the better jumper with higher jumps that covered more distance and had beautiful soft landings and flow.

Flatt's jumps looked small and muscled and never elegant.

I am not buying it. Mirai was easily the better skater.

[Joesitz]

That's why downgrades should be weighted less, because it creates a psychological block for the skater to the point that they won't attempt it in competitions anymore. (what happened to Miki and Mao) I am worried about Mirai's trend of downgrades, because it takes time to fix them and even if she fixes them, she may develop a psychological block about them since she would likely get URs a lot.

Penalties of URs, wrong edge Take-offs, and Falls are all out-of-line, and should be reviewed for more rationalities.

WETs do not disrupt the program, but they've lost the name of the jump and the counter rotation if they are involved in a lutz or walley.

URs do not disrupt the program if they do not Fall.

Falls do indeed disrupt a program.

ToeAxels, and BodyTurn Toe Loops are weird.

[chuckm]

ITA. I found portions of our new champions program comical and her awkard movements and positions are simply impossible to enjoy.

It was also clear to me that Mirai was the better jumper with higher jumps that covered more distance and had beautiful soft landings and flow.

Flatt's jumps looked small and muscled and never elegant.

I am not buying it. Mirai was easily the better skater.

Not to the ISU judges she isn't. She's been gigged for URs all season.

Mirai may have higher jumps, but if her triples are re pre-rotated or under-rotated she should not receive technical credit as triples, and her scores are going to be affected----and that's as it should be.

Flatt's jumps may not move you, but they are fully rotated and she gets full credit for them. ISU and USFS judges don't take into consideration "janetfan"'s personal prejudices.