Championship Ladies FS | Page 48 | Golden Skate

Championship Ladies FS

MFarone

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
Country
United-States
Levels and GOE

Listening to David Kirby on the Skatebug radio in the Spokane Arena really helped me understand the levels. I also realize that I can not possibly count rotations in each spin, length of each spiral position, etc. and still enjoy the performance. I have a skating buddy who can do that, I just can't. It was nice to listen to Mr. Kirby count the positions, etc. and watch at the same time. Fluff was not present while the skaters were doing their programs.

I still find the GOEs hard to understand. I went to look at the protocols today and am puzzled for instance by Ashley Wagner's sp 3lutz fall which had GOEs of -2 and -3. I thought a fall always meant a -3, but maybe this has been changed. Also her layback spin, level 3 had GOEs ranging from +2 to -1 which I don't understand.

Sasha SP had scores on her 3lutz/2t of +1 to -2. I don't get it. If the GOEs were 0 and 1 or 2 and 3s I could understand it - but the spread really confuses me.

Any help understanding this is appreciated!
 

jeff goldblum

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 16, 2005
Double bingo - let's not forget the most mediocre of spirals can also get level 4.

Actually Chuck's posts were helpful especially to older 6.0 fans.

Mirai needs to sove her ur problem which may take a while even with hard work.

Let's also give Rachael and her coach credit for knowing how to use the system. And let's not forget Rachael has worked hard to get the level four spins and spirals.

The CoP is not about beauty and does not reward beautiful skating the way 6.0 did.
It is more about execution and meeting the rule requirements.

There are very few skaters who can excel at CoP and deliver beautiful skating.
Yuna is the best at it. Mao used to but edge calls and stricter urs have made it more difficult for her..

It appears that if Mirai can fix her urs she can join the elites as one of the select few capable of beautiful positions and presentation with CoP's version of correct technique.

As far as this bingo thing goes, I understand that Dark-eyes' interpretation of the rule is not actually what is meant by it, but I think it should be. The point is that if the rules are going to state that there are requirements of where the feet and legs must be relative to the trunk, then it should be more clearly defined. Many people could probably get a foot somewhere near their head, but it sure wouldn't be pretty. For instance, I am persistently bothered by the number of skaters who do poor, I mean really poor cannonball sit positions. This really extends to quite a number of the top skaters. The free leg should be absolutely straight and parallel to the ice, with the head at the knee of the free leg, and the back well stretched, not rounded. You can notice that Sasha Cohen and Mirai Nagasu both display excellent examples. "But," you might say, "those two are far more flexible than most skaters so it's unfair to say that that should be the standard." But, the cannonball sit is a position that requires quite a bit of flexibility to do properly, so merely bending the torso forward and pulling the knee of the free leg up to the head regardless of the leg position, in my book, should not meet the requirements of that spin position. And besides, if the judges have GOE to award points for aesthetic qualities of the element, or how fast or centered a spin is, then shouldn't they also be justifiably using the GOE to deduct points for poorly executed elements of certain levels? I know this happens in extreme cases, but it should be viewed just like an under-rotated jump. The skater has more or less achieved the requirements to be considered a cannonball sit, but the execution of that position is poor and will be given a negative GOE. I believe there is still a provision in the rules that positions demonstrating full split positions in spiral sequences will count towards achieving a high level. However, skaters are still able to reach L4 sequences without this attribute. But, isn't executing a change of edge spiral while maintaing a full split position considerably more difficult than doing so with the leg held just above the hip? Of course, and so shouldn't that be considered not only better executed, but more difficult? A spiral is not required to be in a full split position to be considered a spiral, though most would argue that a spiral achieving that is better executed than one that does not. I'd say that is not necessarily false, but that it is unquestionably more difficult. Obviously we can't have levels that can increase ad infinitum, but if that's the case, there should be much greater discrepancies in the GOE marks between skaters like Rachel and Mirai or back in the day, skaters like Irina and Michelle.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
As far as spirals are concerned, level depends on edging and the number of difficult features. If the change of edge comes at the right distance from the start of the spiral, the spiral will get an extra level. The split position, which makes Sasha's and Caroline's spirals memorable, is just one of a number of 'difficult' features, but it is NOT required. Each of the difficullt positions must be held for a minimum time in order to get the desired level. A level1 spiral is worth only 1.80 base points, while a level4 is worth 3.4 base points.

In addition to the base points awarded per level, judges award (or subtract, if the skater has a balance break or a wobble), grade of execution points. Beautiful spirals will receive higher GOE than those which are not particularly aesthetic. Rachael, Mirai, Ashley, Sasha and Caroline Zhang all achieved L4 spirals, but the points awarded were different for each lady: Caroline 5.54, Sasha 5.26, Mirai 4.97, Ashley 4.69, Rachael 4.11.
 

bethissoawesome

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2005
Something I thought interesting about the final scores was that the highest total score (base value + GOE) for a jumping pass was Bao's 3T+3T, outscoring Flatt's 3F+3T significantly... it goes to show you that sometimes doing something simple you know you can do well is the better choice than just going for the difficulty and keeping your fingers crossed. Definitely something Mao could learn from... (although I think she is more interested in the record books than medals. general viewers tend to remember skaters with the "big jumps" more than medalists imho).
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
A 3t-3t combination isn't exactly "simple" though. It's worth more than a 3lz-2t and most ladies don't attempt it in programs meaning they probably can't do it consistently enough to put it in a program. It might be the easierst 3-3 combination but it still is a 3-3 combination and therefore easily prone to UR calls.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Several ladies do 3T+3T: Sarah Hecken (GER), Laura Lepisto (FIN), Elena Glebova (EST), Alena Leonova (RUS), Ksenia Makarova (RUS), Elene Gedavanishvili (GEO). These ladies aren't always successful with it, though. Sometimes the combo winds up being 3T+2T, or occasionally it gets < on the second jump.

Joannie Rochette used to do 3T+3T several seasons back, but she was only about 50% successful with it. Apparently she gave up on it and instead was working on 3F+3T, but she attempted that just twice in competition, falling on it once and getting the 3T downgraded the other time. Since then her focus has been on skating clean programs, since so many of the other top ladies were getting URs on their 3/3s anyway.
 

Sasha'sSpins

Medalist
Joined
Apr 2, 2009
Country
United-States
The fact is (what fun to say that :laugh:) that you do not know what Mirai is thinking.

The fact is you believe whatever Speedy's tech callers decide is a good or bad jump and i dont.

The fact is they have been known to make mistakes.

The fact is Carroll knows more than you do.

The fact is saying "the fact is" is not convincing and proves nothing. :laugh:

Have a good evening. Thanks for some of your comments which I enjoyed and found informative.

Doesn't it bother you that CoP rewards "horrid" spirals? I haven't paid that much attention to Emily's spirals. But from they way they seem to strike you it seem like you even want to look away while she is doing them. Something wrong with a system that rewards moves that make fans cringe.

...even with all those downgrades I would love to watch Mirai's wonderful LP over and over again whereas I will probably never EVER replay rachael's LP. :frown:
I think this surely tells something.

That is interesting and should be so obvious. I think it is one of the problems with the new system. It might be a matter of taste - or questionable taste - as many CoP loyalists don't mind these "horrid" looking positions.

The loss of skating's popularity is unquestionably due to major defects in the IJS.
Casual fans have NO interest in seeing ugly spins and are smart enough to know that a jump that is rotated - and then goes splat - and still receives points is absurd.

The systeme is still new and to their credit ISU realizes it has many weaknesses which is why they have to keep changing it every season. Sooner or later they might get it right but code of points or not - it is and always will be not only subjective but also comparitive.

Therein lies the problem - as many can't compare Mirai and Rachael's skating without favoring Mirai.

Akiko landed 7 triples and lost to Yuna and Miki who only landed four at the GPF.

I am sure there are many more examples of this.

I thought the whole point of the CoP was that the one with the most jumps would not necessarily win as the other elements would count for more.

When the CoP rates the skaters as equal in the other elements then the one with the most jumps will win.

But CoP doesn't always show who has better spins, speed across the ice, spirals, etc - does it?

Mirai won that by 1 point. No real contrast and basically a tie.

That issue happens to be the lead editorial article at Blazing Blades today.

Like many here they noticed a difference in the skill level between Mirai and Rachael in certain pcs which was in no way reflected in the marks.

Rachael won the jumps and was scored as Mirai's equal in everything else...:disagree:

ITA with all the above. 'Nuff said. :)
 

jsteam4501s

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 7, 2006
No, NOT 'nuff said. All of you know, Scott Hamilton knows, Sandra Bezic knows, that entire audience knows - Everyone knows - that if Ashley hits the too-big TL , she would have won at least the 2nd spot to Vancouver. Mathman knows this, RD knows this, Janetfan knows this. Ashley skated the most visually beautiful, spectacular short and long programs. If we had had the usual 3 spots, Ashley would be going to Vancouver. It's a crying shame what fate has dealt Ashley.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
If we had had the usual 3 spots, Ashley would be going to Vancouver. It's a crying shame what fate has dealt Ashley.

As I pointed out earlier, this is ironic because after all, Wagner WAS on the US World team that first lost 3 spots (2008). She was the highest placed at Nats yet the lowest placed at Worlds (16th). If there were 3 spots in 2009, possibly Flatt/Zhang/Czisny would have been the team, and everyone was crowing how Zhang and Flatt could possibly have gotten those 3 spots (in reality, we'll never know).
 
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