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Thread: Mirai's Triple Lutz Unfairly Downgraded?

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    Mirai's Triple Lutz Unfairly Downgraded?

    Mirai skated a beautiful program at Nationals that was athletic, artistic, had great flow, good connections, and was well coreographed She was marked down on three jumps and some say that the judges were unfair.

    I created a slow motion video of her 3Lz that people claim the technical panel unfairly downgraded. I will not make a call but will say that there are two things in the rules that can cause a jump to be downgraded UR, <

    1. Clear forward takeoff.
    2. More than 1/4 turn under rotated landing.

    Take a look and let me know what you think.

    *** Vidie link updated to remove freeze frames see link below ****

    I am not posting this to bash Mirai. I think she is a wonderful skater and a great hope for the US Ladies. I just think people are unfair to the technical pannel who are trained to see this. I do not think they have some hidden agenda. They called it as they saw it.
    Last edited by gfskater; 01-25-2010 at 10:02 PM.

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    The technical panel was lenient. They could downgrade her flip as well, but chose not to.

    In the end, the best 2 get to go to the Olympics.

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    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    The moment you stop the video seems at the end of prerotation but isn't she already slightly off the ice by then? It looks to me only a 1/4 short of rotation if I start counting her rotation a moment ago. It would depend on which moment you define as the take off. I am not an expert and would appreciate people's insights.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    The moment you stop the video seems at the end of prerotation but isn't she already slightly off the ice by then? It looks to me only a 1/4 short of rotation if I start counting her rotation a moment ago. It would depend on which moment you define as the take off. I am not an expert and would appreciate people's insights.
    These angles can get tricky. For instance it is obvious the second freeze is before her skate has touched down. I have seen many clips like this from Yuna bashers before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    These angles can get tricky. For instance it is obvious the second freeze is before her skate has touched down. I have seen many clips like this from Yuna bashers before.
    For some reason I knew this would hapopen if I did the freeze frame thing.

    It looks to me like her toe pick is on the ice on the take off frame. She is facing forward for several frames before that as well. Her shoulders are rotated even further.

    I will make another with no freeze frame but realy slow so as not to be accused.
    Last edited by gfskater; 01-25-2010 at 09:36 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfskater View Post
    For some reason I knew this would hapopen if I did the freeze frame thing.

    It looks to me like her toe pick is on the ice on the take off frame. She is facing forward for several frames before that as well. Her shoulders are rotated even further.

    I will make another with no freeze frame but realy slow so as not to be accused.
    That might be more interesting. Or try one with the second freeze after Mirai has touched down on the ice. That alone is probably worth 45 degees.

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    OK,

    I posted another super slow without the freeze frame. Hopefully the youtubers won't accuse me of being a Mirai basher for posting 2 videos of this. Look at her entire body as well as the skate. Is she clearly forward on take off? I am still not entirely sure what clearly forward means but that is what is in the rules for cheated takeoff. I don't think she is clearly backward.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ3uEMDTNrU

    BTW,

    You only need one of these errors to be marked < (under rotated). If your takeofff is forward and your landing is perfect you can be marked <

    The landing looks quite close to 1/4 hard to tell without high speed video. I don't envy the job of the technical panel.
    Last edited by Tonichelle; 01-26-2010 at 12:15 AM. Reason: just edit when adding a thought so as not to post back to back

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    Former figure skater and HUGE figure skating fan. n_halifax's Avatar
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    It is close but I'm sorry to say it looks like 1/4 to me. I think this was fairly called.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gfskater View Post
    OK,

    I posted another super slow without the freeze frame. Hopefully the youtubers won't accuse me of being a Mirai basher for posting 2 videos of this. Look at her entire body as well as the skate. Is she clearly forward on take off? I am still not entirely sure what clearly forward means but that is what is in the rules for cheated takeoff. I don't think she is clearly backward.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ3uEMDTNrU
    Thanks - I think that clip is better.
    I am no expert but maybe someone else will comment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Thanks - I think that clip is better.
    I am no expert but maybe someone else will comment.
    I removed the other video. I think you are correct that the freeze frame can make it look like I am up to something. Better to show the raw footage and let people judge for themselves.

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    NBC showed all three jumps in slomo and all three were UR. The flip may have been slightly URd as well, but the tech panel gave her the benefit of the doubt on that one.

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    Bad Technique

    Quote Originally Posted by gfskater View Post
    Mirai skated a beautiful program at Nationals that was athletic, artistic, had great flow, good connections, and was well coreographed She was marked down on three jumps and some say that the judges were unfair.

    I created a slow motion video of her 3Lz that people claim the technical panel unfairly downgraded. I will not make a call but will say that there are two things in the rules that can cause a jump to be downgraded UR, <

    1. Clear forward takeoff.
    2. More than 1/4 turn under rotated landing.

    Take a look and let me know what you think.

    *** Vidie link updated to remove freeze frames see link below ****

    I am not posting this to bash Mirai. I think she is a wonderful skater and a great hope for the US Ladies. I just think people are unfair to the technical pannel who are trained to see this. I do not think they have some hidden agenda. They called it as they saw it.
    You're 100% correct.

    Mirai is using her right foot toepick as a tool for pre-rotation.
    This is how to do it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoj1LY50MoQ
    Last edited by SkatingAnalyst; 01-25-2010 at 11:40 PM.

  13. #13
    Tanguera feraina's Avatar
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    Thanks for the slow-mo. I don't think she was dinged for the take-off, but it's pretty clear from the slow-mo that she didn't under-rotate the landing.

    I'd like to see a similar slow-mo for her 2A-3T.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SkatingAnalyst View Post
    You're 100% correct.

    Mirai is using her right foot toepick as a tool for pre-rotation.
    This is how to do it.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoj1LY50MoQ
    I'm 99% sure that, in terms of downgrades, it's the skating edge that's considered for pre-rotation, not the toe pick.

  15. #15
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by n_halifax View Post
    It is close but I'm sorry to say it looks like 1/4 to me. I think this was fairly called.
    It has to be more than 1/4 turn short to be downgraded.

    2 out of 3 of the underrotation calls were unfair, seeing as how they weren't applied to Flatt. Her 3-3's should not have been ratified if Mirai's 2Axel-3Toe wasn't.

    Also, look at the great close-up of Flatt's 3Lutz in the SP here:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsgUmE8ei54

    That jump could have been downgraded if the panel was being picky because her toepick touched the ice before the 1/4 turn mark. I will create screenshots later.

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