NYT article "Skate Scoring Has Little for Artistry"

i love to skate · Jan 24, 2010

Layfan said:
I give Dick Button credit for sensing immediately that TV audiences needed to know that Mirai lost because of UR calls and explaining that to them. I could be wrong but I think he was the first person to mention that to NBC's audiences.

I was talking about the segments they ran before the dance and ladies where all he was talking about was how much he wanted Sasha to make the Olympic teams, her positions, her extensions, blah blah blah.

ETA:

Spun Silver said:
My problem isn't so much that Mirai's jumps got dinged -- although frankly if Scott Hamilton can't see a problem I have to believe the calls were questionable -- but that her superiority in other areas was not recognized. Or to put it as you did, how do you think it makes the girls feel who learned to skate beautifully and not just correctly?

Scott freely admitted he f'd it up - as did NBC who should have shown the replays of Mirai's jumps. As for the girls who learned improper technique, it should make them realize that they need to go home and fix it if they want to keep improving their marks and placings.

kyla2 · Jan 24, 2010

A Complete Mess

Here we go again. The audience got it right and the judges didn't, thanks to a scoring system that is a mess. Mirai Nagasu outskated Rachel Flatt in every respect except for a 1/4 under rotation on 2 jumps. That should have not been the deal breaker. Rachel had a bad landing coming out of her opening combination jump. She skates like a quarterback. Her posture and positions are simply awful. When she is stroking across the ice all I see is her hunched shoulders. So, if you factor in not so great spirals, spins and laybacks ESPECIALLY when compared to Mirai's, it is clear who should have won. Frankly, Ashley is also a much better skater if you factor in position, spirals and laybacks. Rachel is artisticly bereft and the sportwriters who have watched this sport for year get it, and so do I. You cannot have these results and expect to maintain your fan base and expect the sport to thrive.

As for Sasha, it was a brave attempt and I have a new respect for her. She tried. It was not surprising that with little practice time she couldn't be completely successful. It was great to see her.

Spun Silver · Jan 24, 2010

i love to skate said:
I was talking about the segments they ran before the dance and ladies where all he was talking about was how much he wanted Sasha to make the Olympic teams, her positions, her extensions, blah blah blah.

Good grief. That lasted about a minute and included all the stuff about the little buttercup Mirai. (I loved that description - "sunshine pouring out of her.")

We get it, you don't like Sasha. :sheesh:

Layfan · Jan 24, 2010

i love to skate said:
I was talking about the segments they ran before the dance and ladies where all he was talking about was how much he wanted Sasha to make the Olympic teams, her positions, her extensions, blah blah blah.

Fine. But I'd still like to point out that he was the first to mention that Mirai lost because of URs. And he didn't whine about it or anything. So that probably went a long way into educating TV audiences who were confused. Kudos to him for that is all I'm saying.

bekalc · Jan 24, 2010

Spun Silver said:
Bekalc, your defense of correct scoring of jumps makes sense, but do you not believe that Mirai and other skaters work their butts off on the program components as well?

My problem isn't so much that Mirai's jumps got dinged -- although frankly if Scott Hamilton can't see a problem I have to believe the calls were questionable -- but that her superiority in other areas was not recognized. Or to put it as you did, how do you think it makes the girls feel who learned to skate beautifully and not just correctly?

Where is the incentive for Rachael and other technician types to develop themselves artistically? As far as I can see, the only incentive is if they'd like to be beloved by the general public. Their scores are not suffering at all.

I thought Rachael's PCS were way to high here and I actually agree. However, I think this had more to do with frankly politics than anything else. The USFSA wanted to make darn sure that Rachael was on the Olympic team. And I honestly cannot blame them there. However, I think if the USFSA had other girls they were sure about Rachael would be finding herself getting lesser and lesser PCS.

This being said I'm not so sure that Mirai actually did deserve that much higher scores than Rachael PCS either. I think that Mirai deserved higher scores in skating skills and higher scores in P/E. But other than that did Mirai really have more transitions than Rachael I'm not so sure about that one. And there were tons of complaints about Mirai's empty choregraphy. As for Mirai's interpertation, I think I'd only give her "slightly" higher scores than Rachael there. I don't think Mirai's Carmen was particularly mature or great. It was actually a fairly childish Carmen.

But as said earlier I think Rachael's pcs were more the USFSA ensuring that Rachael is on the Olympic Team. And I'm not sure they can really be blamed there.

But there is plenty of incentive for Rachael to improve her PCS. Considering the fact that she needs major mistakes now from five girls to even have a shot at a medal. And she has other US girls coming up who have good if not better technique on their jumps.

janetfan · Jan 24, 2010

Layfan said:
I give Dick Button credit for sensing immediately that TV audiences needed to know that Mirai lost because of UR calls and explaining that to them. I could be wrong but I think he was the first person to mention that to NBC's audiences.

I thought Button was OK last night. He was asked about Sasha and he gave an honest reply.

It will be interesting hearing Button talk about our new champion. I am sure he will find nice things to say - but we already know how he values posture, a good back, extensions, air position, "it factor" etc.

Rachael has good qualities but they are certainly different that what we know Button admires most in skaters.

Scott reportedly was spellbound by Mirai's performance and who can blame him because her skating has so many beautiful qualities to it

Mathman · Jan 24, 2010

i love to skate said:
exactly. Again, Dick Button last night was complaining for the millionth time about the "very complicated scoring system". With all the attention they gave to his ramblings and his ravings about Sasha they could have run three segments on the scoring system!

Dick Button is not an ISU employee. Nor is it the job of televsion networks to make people like figure skating. (If people don't want to watch figure skating, the television network will just shrug and put on snowboarding instead.)

There is no point in blaming television commentators for not praising the new judging system. If champions like Dick Button and Scott Hamilton think that the IJS is too complicated for the fans to enjoy, why isn't the ISU listening?

Instead, the ISU's response is to circle the wagons, cover their eyes like a see-no-evil monkey, and look around for someone else to blame. Dick Button?

miki88 · Jan 24, 2010

Even if Rachel deserves to win, she shouldn't have won with such a large margin. It was not even a close race, which seems ridiculous to the viewers. Rachel may have full rotated jumps but her landings are sloppy. Her jumps don't have the flow or ease, isn't that supposed to be considered in the marks?

i love to skate · Jan 24, 2010

Spun Silver said:
Good grief. That lasted about a minute and included all the stuff about the little buttercup Mirai. (I loved that description - "sunshine pouring out of her.")

We get it, you don't like Sasha. :sheesh:

They lasted much longer than a minute. All I'm saying is that they could have used that time to their advantage and could have educated their audience. Or would we rather talk about "souffles". As for Sasha, I don't really care one way or another - as I said before - I had nothing invested in the results of this event

Layfan said:
Fine. But I'd still like to point out that he was the first to mention that Mirai lost because of URs. And he didn't whine about it or anything. So that probably went a long way into educating TV audiences who were confused. Kudos to him for that is all I'm saying.

Yes, that was good that he did that - at least someone did.

Mathman said:
Dick Button is not an ISU employee. Nor is it the job of televsion networks to make people like figure skating. (If people don't want to watch figure skating, the television network will just shrug and put on snowboarding instead.)

There is no point in blaming television commentators for not praising the new judging system. If champions like Dick Button and Scott Hamilton think that the IJS is too complicated for the fans to enjoy, why isn't the ISU listening?

Instead, the ISU's response is to circle the wagons, cover their eyes like a see-no-evil monkey, and look around for someone else to blame. Dick Button?

I didn't say they had to praise it but would it kill them to explain it? As to why the ISU isn't listening it's because skating is not a problem in many countries. Look at the ratings and attendence for Canadian Nationals, Japanese Nationals, Europeans, etc. Skating is thriving in many parts of the world.

All I keep hearing is that US fans aren't tuning in anymore - well that really isn't the ISU's concern. It is the USFSA and NBC who need to be concerned if they want ratings and revenue to increase. If other countries can understand the new system, why can't the US? It is because of the networks and commentators who have done virtually nothing to explain it to the viewers. If you tune into skating and hear someone talking about how complicated it is, well most casual fans are going to change the channel.

Hurdler4eva · Jan 24, 2010

Noting that divers and gymnasts are penalized for imperfect rotations in their routines, Zakrajsek said, “Why wouldn’t we do that in figure skating?”

He added: “This is not a beauty pageant.”

I found it very interesting that Rachael's coach said this. What is he trying to imply? That fans don't like Rachael because she is not as pretty as the other girls?

I hadn't considered it, but that may actually be a valid point. Most fans probably consider Mirai, Ashley and Sasha more aesthetically pleasing - on and off the ice. Although, MAC does sponsor Rachael, so I guess they see some beauty in her.

I will leave it at that since I don't want to attack anyone.

Mathman · Jan 24, 2010

bekalc said:
Exactly. Scott/Sandra's job is to sell the sport..

It is absolutely not Scott and Sandra's job to sell the sport.

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 24, 2010

Spun Silver said:
My problem isn't so much that Mirai's jumps got dinged -- although frankly if Scott Hamilton can't see a problem I have to believe the calls were questionable -- but that her superiority in other areas was not recognized. Or to put it as you did, how do you think it makes the girls feel who learned to skate beautifully and not just correctly?

Where is the incentive for Rachael and other technician types to develop themselves artistically? As far as I can see, the only incentive is if they'd like to be beloved by the general public. Their scores are not suffering at all.

1. What superiority did Nagasu have did you feel wasn't correctly credited?

2. I'd argue that internationally, their scores (the pure technicians) will suffer, though. Flatt might have a harder program than say, Yu Na Kim, but a clean Kim will wipe the ice with Flatt, and that's partially because Kim's artistry is ahead of Flatt.

3. We complained at Euros when an artistic skater with flawed jumping abilities was placed ahead less artistic skaters with stronger jumps (see Laura Lepisto), which I think is a worthwhile corollary to this discussion.

bekalc · Jan 24, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
1. What superiority did Nagasu have did you feel wasn't correctly credited?

2. I'd argue that internationally, their scores (the pure technicians) will suffer, though. Flatt might have a harder program than say, Yu Na Kim, but a clean Kim will wipe the ice with Flatt, and that's partially because Kim's artistry is ahead of Flatt.

Its not even a clean Kim that will wipe the floor with Flatt its a Kim skating fairly well.

miki88 · Jan 24, 2010

I am pretty sure all of the top ladies will beat Flatt because of higher PCS. Only way Flatt can sneak in is if one or more of them make some major mistakes. I think that's the main issue with a skater like Flatt who is consistent but not artistic. She can only hope to medal if others falter. Mirai, if she fixes those URs, has more potential to become a more superior skater.

Spun Silver · Jan 24, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
1. What superiority did Nagasu have did you feel wasn't correctly credited?

2. I'd argue that internationally, their scores (the pure technicians) will suffer, though. Flatt might have a harder program than say, Yu Na Kim, but a clean Kim will wipe the ice with Flatt, and that's partially because Kim's artistry is ahead of Flatt.

3. We complained at Euros when an artistic skater with flawed jumping abilities was placed ahead less artistic skaters with stronger jumps (see Laura Lepisto), which I think is a worthwhile corollary to this discussion.

I need to watch the vids again to be more specific (which at the moment I"m too depressed to do) but in general I'd say Mirai's spins, spirals, interpretation and performance are all way above Rachael's.

I do agree that under the present system, if you have two skaters with equal jumps where one is superior in other areas, then the second one will beat the one who's just about jumps. And that's good as far as it goes.

But if we take your 3rd point seriously, the system is a little confused, no? Because the criterion at Euros '09 ('08?) was exactly the opposite of US Nats '10. So which is it???

Layfan · Jan 24, 2010

I'd argue that internationally, their scores (the pure technicians) will suffer, though. Flatt might have a harder program than say, Yu Na Kim, but a clean Kim will wipe the ice with Flatt, and that's partially because Kim's artistry is ahead of Flatt.

Exactly. Mirai will suffer internationally (and has) for her URs. So the U.S. judges would do her no favors by ignoring them. Likewise Rachael will suffer internationally for her lack of artistry. The U.S. judges should have done her no favors in that department, either. I don't understand how Rachael beat Mirai on presentation and interpretation, that's all.

bekalc said:
Its not even a clean Kim that will wipe the floor with Flatt its a Kim skating fairly well.

Kim is the very rare skater who lives up to the difficult technical demands of CoP AND wins over audiences with her grace and artistry. Thank goodness for her. She will be the main reason why I will watch the ladies at the Olympics. And for Mao and Mirai. Everyone else? Meh.

janetfan · Jan 24, 2010

miki88 said:
I am pretty sure all of the top ladies will beat Flatt because of higher PCS. Only way Flatt can sneak in is if one or more of them make some major mistakes. I think that's the main issue with a skater like Flatt who is consistent but not artistic. She can only hope to medal if others falter. Mirai, if she fixes those URs, has more potential to become a more superior skater.

If any part of skating is still about artistic presentation and making a crowd feel some emotion - then Mirai is already a vastly superior skater to Flatt.

She proved it last night and also at COC where the crowd preferred her over Flatt.

I can't imagine but a few skaters today who have Mirai's charisma and abilty to draw in a crowd. Some here act like that is a bad thing and bad for skating.

I totally disagree with such thinking.

Laura is another one who has great qualities to her skating and a few urs will never change that no matter how much the CoP wants to hold her down.

oleada · Jan 24, 2010

Mathman said:
It is absolutely not Scott and Sandra's job to sell the sport.

But it is their job to know the scoring system in order to be able to commentate appropriately. They are ignorant and hostile about COP. Compare them to Tara and Paul Wylie, for example, who know about levels and are much more pleasant to listen to. Let's face it - COP is no longer new and S&S better get used to it.

Also, Sandra tries to be poetic in what she says, but comes of completely haughty and ridiculous and Scott's screeching is very very annoying.

As for the topic of the article, I can't believe Rachael got so much positive GOE for spins that were quite frankly, hideous, and didn't get much -GOE for her flawed 3+3. Mirai should've wiped the floor in PCS. I'm fine with Rachael winning the technical mark; but her PCS were ridiculous.

ImaginaryPogue · Jan 24, 2010

1. Mirai beat Rachael in terms of her spirals and spins.

2. Nope, the system isn't confused. That's the beauty of it. It gives a skater who lacks in one area to make up for it in other ones.

Using my example: Lepisto isn't the strongest jumper. She'll consistently score worse than many skaters in that department because she lacks breadth. However, she can make up for it thanks to her amazing basic skills, strong musicality and gorgeous spins/spirals. That's a good thing for those who want variety in the sport, right?

Another example: Chan doesn't have a quad, so compared to many of the top guys, he'll suffer. The upside for him is that what he does have he does thrillingly well, so he can earn good GOE's. His PCS will suffer a little from the lack of the quad, though, so he needs those GOEs (he can earn 2 full points on step sequences, for example, and that's the difference between a triple axel and a quad).

So, here comes Flatt: She's a solid jumper. She's not Kim, Rochette or even Ando in that department, but she took the time to improve and she has. So she's been rewarded for that. What she isn't is a beautiful spinner/spiraler. But she makes up for it because she's still able to earn points for the difficulty of spins/spirals.

The big problem that people seem to be focusing on is two fold.

a) Nagasu's UR is penalized much more heavily than Flatt's problems. Now, my impression is that jump problems are always more penalized than anything else (see Lucinda Ruh vs Tatianna Malinina). And it seems that the general opinion here is that UR's are too heavily punished.

b) Quality takes a backseat to difficulty.

Am I wrong?

Layfan · Jan 24, 2010

oleada said:
As for the topic of the article, I can't believe Rachael got so much positive GOE for spins that were quite frankly, hideous, and didn't get much -GOE for her flawed 3+3. Mirai should've wiped the floor in PCS. I'm fine with Rachael winning the technical mark; but her PCS were ridiculous.

:yes: In the end, Mirai might win the most from this situation. She will work hard on her URs. But as someone pointed out, Rachael doesn't have as much incentive to work on her grace.

NYT article "Skate Scoring Has Little for Artistry"

i love to skate

kyla2

Spun Silver

Layfan

bekalc

janetfan

Match Penalty

Mathman

miki88

i love to skate

Hurdler4eva

Mathman

ImaginaryPogue

bekalc

miki88

Spun Silver

Layfan

janetfan

Match Penalty

oleada

ImaginaryPogue

Layfan

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