Mirai's Triple Lutz Unfairly Downgraded?

Mathman said:

That is a great technical question! Thank you for persisting in asking.

So, Joe's point is that it is impossible to pre-rotate your skating foot on a Lutz because it is curving the wrong way.

But can you rotate on your toe-pick after your skating foot has left the ice? Sort of a pirouette on the tip of your picking foot on the way up?

Click to expand...

Oh, I think I finally get this. But that must be a VERY difficult habit to kick! Once you get very used to jumping that way ...

Mathman said:

That is a great technical question! Thank you for persisting in asking.

So, Joe's point is that it is impossible to pre-rotate your skating foot on a Lutz because it is curving the wrong way.

But can you rotate on your toe-pick after your skating foot has left the ice? Sort of a pirouette on the tip of your picking foot on the way up?

Click to expand...

I think it should be clear enough - take off is a take off - no feet on the ice. If somebody forward and still have anything on the ice it is pre-rotation 180. I'm coach and skater by the way.

^ The question I had was whether it is possible to do this -- to spin around 180 degrees on your toe-pick after your other foot has left the ice on a clean outside edge, and still get up in the air enough to complete the element.

Singles, yes. Doubles, maybe. Triples, probably not.

No. This is exactly what happens. The rotational energy must be generated before the skater is in the air. Where does it come from? Staying on an outside edge on the lutz does not preclude pre-rotation. The foot, leg, hip, and torso are all capable of being in different positions at once, and this is what happens during a lutz. Go to your youtubes or your home recorded vhs tapes of skating if you have them, and work the slow motion. The right foot (picking foot) leaves the ice last in the take off for the flip and lutz, though that should be quite obvious. Understand that all the parts of the body are working together during takeoff, and the rotation is transferred through all parts.

I present this video of Miki Ando who executes a perfect lutz. If you can manage, pausing during the slow motion replay of her lutz, somewhere in the 4:37 mark will show that she is turned about 90 degrees and with the right toe just about to leave the ice. Still a clean lutz.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWi258quW0I

Pre-rotation also does not mean that it must be one half turn on the ice before entering the air. All jumps pre-rotate. All, all, all.

Also, a bit later in that video, one can see that her triple flip rotates on that toe-pick even more on the take off. This is all proper technique people.

Mathman said:

^ The question I had was whether it is possible to do this -- to spin around 180 degrees on your toe-pick after your other foot has left the ice on a clean outside edge, and still get up in the air enough to complete the element.

Click to expand...

There is a clip od Mirai's 3Lz2T posted on the first page of this thread http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ3uEMDTNrU
It shows Mirai's left foot in the air and took of from outside, maybe a bit flat edge but she keep pivoting around until taking forward from right toe pick. So it is possible. I hope this is what you were asking about.

Most skaters take off on lutz and flip when left leg passes parallel to the right toe pick. So they are taking off more sideways and almost at the same time from both feet and get about 1/4 pre-rotation. Look at this video of Maxwell (take off from flat), Gilles (clean lutz) and Murakami (flutz) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1eYArxf1GjM&feature=related