Johnny Weir vs Friends of Animals

Mafke said:

Well, first, I can tell the difference between humans and animals (humans are moral agents, animals aren't). I'm surprised that you can't.

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That fact that humans are moral agents is exactly why they should behave morally. No, I do not expect bulls to enact a law against people-fighting.

However, I think the difference between humans and other animals is this. Humans can think, and can think about their thought processes. We are conscious, and are conscious of our state of consciousness. We can reason, and can catch ourselves in the act of reasoning. We can analyze our capacity to analyze.

This double whammy of the human brain is why we (modestly ) call ourselves not just homo sapiens, but homo sapiens sapiens. We are not only smart, we are capable of congratulating ourselves on just how smart we are.

Other animals can’t do this (so we assume -- not sure about chimpanzees).

Do we have some sort of “soul” that other animals lack? All sentient creatures have Buddha-nature (sometimes translated “soul.”) My wish for Johnny is that he will exercise his uniquely human gift to meditate on these things.

(And if you can snatch this pebble from my hand, Grasshopper, you might win an Olympic gold medal. )

just wondering said:

Frankly, I appreciate Johnny's willingness to perpetuate his "I am who I am" persona. He takes his stance, won't bow to pressure, and relishes the attention. Of course, I'm sure he doesn't appreciate the vitriol associated with the issue, but he probably knew that was part of the deal when he selected fox, rather than faux, for his costume.

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:agree:

No one is perfect. Everyone has mature parts and immature parts whether they show it or hide it. Considering that so many people eat meat, wear leather, and so on, including the fact that all skaters wear skates which are partially made of cows ( leather ) on their skates, but again, the focus is on Johnny.

Why don’t those groups like Friends of Animals focus on the fur industries, or hunters, or whoever are actually killing the animals, or the government to try and change laws, instead of on a particular figure skater because of his love of fur.

I’m not a fur lover , ( but I do eat meat, and I love leather ) but I’m not surprised that some people love fur, since there are so many that do, and I’m not going to quit being a fan of someone or stop being friends with someone simply because of that.

I agree with Weir’s this comment below,

“There are humans dying everyday. There are thousands if not millions of homeless people in New York City. Look at what just happened in Haiti."

“I tend to focus my energy, if there is a cause, on humans. While that may be callous and bad of me, it’s my choice.”

“Every skater is wearing skates made out of cow,” Weir said. “Maybe I’m wearing a cute little fox while everyone else is wearing cow, but we’re all still wearing animals.”

And I don’t find any immature parts here.

I don't see why it is an either-or. Johnny could donate money to Haiti and volunteer in a soup kitchen to serve the homeless of New York City, and still choose a different wardrobe. What "focus of energy" is required to grab a different wrap from his closet?

he's not making it an either or.

Mathman said:

I don't see why it is an either-or. Johnny could donate money to Haiti and volunteer in a soup kitchen to serve the homeless of New York City, and still choose a different wardrobe. What "focus of energy" is required to grab a different wrap from his closet?

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:agree:

Tonichelle said:

he's not making it an either or.

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He clearly is. He is essentially saying that he can't be bothered to deal with animal rights issues (even though he acknowledges the fur industry is awful) because there are bigger problems in the world. But one has nothing to do with the other. He's not expected to be an animal rights advocate, and not wearing fur isn't an active thing that eats into his time or costs him anything. The argument Johnny is making may not be immature, but it is rather disingenuous. Not wearing fur has yet to stop anyone from volunteering their time, donating to various causes, or speaking out regarding important issues.

I don't buy that wearing fur is fine because skates are made of leather, either. Even without getting into the issue of where leather comes from vs. fur - wearing skates is a necessity if you're a skater, and apparently there are no options if you're an elite level skater other than leather. Wearing real fur is not a necessity for a skater. That's a huge difference and I'm sure Johnny's aware of it. What he does is of course his business, and there's no law against wearing fur on the ice; he won't get a costume deduction. But surely he knew what kind of reaction his decision would get? He chose to publicize it well before stepping on the ice in Spokane - on his Twitter, in his ESPN interview, etc. Was wearing fur that important to him? Did it contribute to his costume or his performance?

Slightly OT, Medusa brought up the subject of where people buy meat and from whom, and you, Toni, wrote that your father provided for your family by hunting. I think if people are going to eat meat - and I don't expect everyone to be vegetarian, though I obviously am - it is possible to buy meat that came from animals who lived in humane conditions and who were butchered in a manner meant to cause them the least amount of pain. Hunting, to me, is a much better choice in this regard than buying factory-farmed meat, so long as it is done for food and not for sport.

can we still display the antlers at least, then, when we do get a moose? we use every bit of it, including the decorative part!


as for Johnny - he'd not make the argument for one or the other at all if not "forced" to by the media campaign going on at the moment. Yes, he's asking for it - this isn't his first tussle with this type of group. He's into fashion, fur is an EXPENSIVE fashion, I can see it being an innocent thing in the beginning. Though I'm sure he was planning to see someone rise up and challenge it. I just don't agree with the extremes these groups go for. There's a way to do it without publicly hummiliating him (or attempting to, I should say) or doing so in a disrespectful manner.

We don't know anymore than they do where the fur came from. We don't know if it was a hummane or inhummane killing. FoA assumes it was a cruel killing because - to them - all killings are cruel and wrong, no matter what the reason. THEY feel threatened because Johnny dares "flaunt" this "murderous act." They use hyperbole and when that doesn't work threats (and in some cases, rocks and/or snowballs and other physical harm). To me that does show that they put animal rights above that of human rights, I am understanding of the cause, but not when it resorts this this type of behavior. Ever. For any reason or cause.

Daniel5555 said:

antmanb

Well, first of all those bulls are procreating, so in order to stop that, you'll have to castrate them all. Then the pastures are isolated (because the bulls are dangerous for people) and very wide, at least you will have to pay land taxes for them and if the land is not yours is worse.
It's not that easy. A bull for the corrida costs around €12000, while a common bull costs €4000

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I suppose the cost of keeping them without the ultmiate income from the corrida would be prohibitively expensive.

Daniel5555 said:

They say they love those animals, but it's ok if they die in a butchery. It's a bit strange. If they hate to watch them dying, no one forces them to watch the corrida in the first place.
There is some inconsistency in this.

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I think the main difference is that animals killed in abatoir are killed more humanely and more quickly. Bulls in a corrida can take a long time to die, suffer a lot of blood loss while being taunted and angered. That would be the main difference for me.

Daniel5555 said:

First of all, it's not drugged. That bull is really fast and furious, so the bullfighter is in danger too. The thing is that this bull is dumb, so if you know how to deal with it, is not that dangerous.

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I have heard of instances where the bull has been drugged. I think the biggest complaint I would have is the fact that the bull is already injured when it enters the ring - aren't spears/daggers thrown into its back to anger it for the fight? (It's been a long time since I discussed this - my grandfather would tell me about it.)

Daniel5555 said:

I don't understand why you always call it "sport". It's not a sport. It's considered "art" by some people, but I never heard that is considered as "sport" by someone.

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My mistake i always understood it to be known as a "sport" rather than "art". Hey maybe it's a lot like figure skating after all

Daniel5555 said:

Personally I think that sports like boxing are much more cruel than this, because it's about two people beating each other with no reason. Yes, they both are willing to do so, but I think it's cruel and overall wrong. But sports like those are widely loved while they doesn't have any cultural value at all.

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I'm with you on boxing - i don't get it at all, but the main difference between the two is the element of consent. Two humans can consent to fight each other, the aim is to knock each other out, not to kill each other. Both parties have a choice. So while i agree it has no cultural value, I also question what cultural value corrida has? The only thing I can think of is "tradition" but I can't see what other cultural value it has.

Daniel5555 said:

Anyway, if you're looking for the stupid traditions, the Spain is the place to go, because here we have a lot of them Some of them without animals, but still stupid

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My parents live in Spain and mother is half Spanish so i've grown up knowing a lot of the traditions. Isn't there one involving pushing a goat out of a church tower? I forget where and the reason why.

Ant

Personally I find it ridiculous the whole subject. No i dont like Johnny to promote the wearing fur thing and he should have kept it in bedroom as he has said. Hey, why they dont bother with the Evan feathers also?Maybe it is from a rare brand of peacock.(i kid).

But honestly?The whole european and american lifestyle demands that you buy Louis Vitton and pay 1000 euros for it, crocodile bag and snake boots and from Fashion Week to CosmoGirl the whole worlds wears fur and leather. Is this a necessity also? The purest the leather or the fur , the most expensive the product for people to satisfy their vanity that they possess something original. So for me to take 10 feathers or 10 milligram of johnny's fur and make it such a deal is complete hypocrisy. If they had the guts they should attack a big brand outside Macys.
I hate when figure skating becomes news only by scandals.

^^ Well said, Seniorita!:agree::agree::agree: I agree with everything you said.

seniorita said:

If they had the guts they should attack a big brand outside Macys.

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exactly.

antmanb

I suppose the cost of keeping them without the ultmiate income from the corrida would be prohibitively expensive.

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Exactly.

I think the main difference is that animals killed in abatoir are killed more humanely and more quickly. Bulls in a corrida can take a long time to die, suffer a lot of blood loss while being taunted and angered.

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This is not true generally. Corrida usually takes around 30 minutes and the first half of it they don't even touch the bull.
Then they use spears, but they can't damage the internal organs with them. There is a lot of blood loss, but the bull can recover from it. And at the end it's killed with a sword. It has to die instantly, but in the most cases the bullfighter can't do this correctly, so then a sort of knife is used to kill a fallen bull, and this is very fast death always.
That's what happens during a "normal" corrida...

In abattoir it's very different. First of all when they arrive there, they have to wait until their "turn", to say so, because there are always a lot of animals in line (I know it sounds horrible, but that's how it is). So they are waiting for hours hearing how other animals are dying, and that's really depressing. Then I don't know how much it takes to die or how they are killed, but really no one is thinking about their comfort, it's all about being cheap and efficient, but if is takes for them at least 5 minutes, I would say that it's much worse than in a corrida.

I have heard of instances where the bull has been drugged.

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Well, according to PETA not only it's drugged, it also was beaten a lot of times and electrocuted in it's anus (that's a trend going here), but I don't think that this is true, because I never heard about it and all the bulls I saw seemed to be in perfect state.
The bulls that are running in Pamplona are the same bulls that are used in corrida, and by the way they are running, I don't think that they were beaten or tortured.
Maybe a lot of people are surprised how can a bullfighter dodge those bulls so easily, but that's because he trained a lot to do so and he knows how to do this. But sometimes they make errors too and are injured. The bull is dumb, but I'm sure that it's not drugged.

I think the biggest complaint I would have is the fact that the bull is already injured when it enters the ring - aren't spears/daggers thrown into its back to anger it for the fight? (It's been a long time since I discussed this - my grandfather would tell me about it.)

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I don't think that it's injured before entering the ring. To anger it? But the first part of corrida is dedicated to anger it without hurting it. In the first part there are just some guys with those big "wraps" that are dodging the bull and not doing anything to it. He attacks them because that's what he normally does when someone enters his territory.

I'm not sure how many of the people from this forum contacted with a bull, but this animal has some sort of a radius that you'd better not to enter, because it's supposed to protect the cows and so, and it can attack you if it doesn't know you.
I remember that one bull nearly killed a man in a village where I lived, and that was a common bull. The cows are much more peaceful. A baby bull loves to poke at everyone with the horns, but it's not dangerous.

My parents live in Spain and mother is half Spanish so i've grown up knowing a lot of the traditions. Isn't there one involving pushing a goat out of a church tower? I forget where and the reason why.

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Don't know, but knowing how much stupidity happens here, I would not be surprised that it exists.

Nadine said:

Let the little boy have his 15 minutes of fame, or more, enjoy the spotlight, be controversial, maybe get a SOI gig from it, or another runway offer.

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I thought being controversial automatically knocked you out of the running for SOI.

Am I mean to say that it will help the popular of the sport if the friends of animals give a whack to johnny during Olympic practice?

Just kidding, I'm a big Johnny supporter, but he disappoint me so many times. If he get whacked, then he has a much better excuse for his "meltdown" performance than missing the bus.........

motrin said:

Am I mean to say that it will help the popular of the sport if the friends of animals give a whack to johnny during Olympic practice?

Just kidding, I'm a big Johnny supporter, but he disappoint me so many times. If he get whacked, then he has a much better excuse for his "meltdown" performance than missing the bus.........

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OMG. That is not something joke about.

TravellinJones said:

OMG. That is not something joke about.

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But everybody has to be thinking about it by now. Security has apparently never been great at FS events, remember casino-wh0r3 who jumped on the ice with Michelle Kwan in 2004? It's just crazy, blind luck he was a paid shill and not a crazy bent on doing her harm (as happened to Monica Seles, also in Germany, you'd think they'd have learned something, but ....).

Does anyone doubt the willingness or certain animal rights people to try to disrupt Weir's performance? On another board, an animal advocate suggested that fear of reprisal should motivate Weir all the more to change his costume... in effect siding with physical intimidation.

Johnny Weir has announced he is changing his free skate costume, so perhaps the controversy will die down.

nylynnr said:

Johnny Weir has announced he is changing his free skate costume, so perhaps the controversy will die down.

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Unless he's wearing a fox suit.

aftertherain said:

Unless he's wearing a fox suit.

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Faux fox.

nylynnr said:

Faux fox.

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Thanx God.. world's problems are solved , Johnny will change his costume, DomShab will change their od (will they?), fs is too much of a drama queen.

seniorita said:

Thanx God.. world's problems are solved , Johnny will change his costume, DomShab will change their od (will they?), fs is too much of a drama queen.

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I don't think there is time to change the OD. I would be surprised if they do not change the costume and perhaps meet with Aboriginal leaders to refine or eliminate some arm or upper body movements. It would be good PR.