No SC "Detailed" Detailed Results

**Rgirl** · 11-02-2003, 09:09 AM

Here's an interesting "argh!" moment for COP maniacs. I went to the same ISU site for Skate Canada as had all the PDF format tables for Skate America so I could compare every single number for each element and component for every skater, pair, or team. If you go to:
http://www.isufs.org/results/sc2003/index.htm
it looks the same as the SA results format, but when you click on the far right box for "result details" all you get is the TES, the TCS, and the trimmed mean score for each of the five components.

Well, bummer!

I was looking forward to another massive headache looking at all those rows of numbers

Seriously, now when I watch it, if Skater X makes the same mistake on the same jump as s/he did at SA, how can we compare if the judges' GOE is the same? How can Mathman figure out for us which judges were randomly excluded? Oh, wait. Mathman, I think you mentioned that Speedy might catch on to us if he reads this and we wouldn't get the complete COP tables for each skater as we did for SA. Methinks Speedy is a' lurkin' at GS:sheesh:
Rgirl

**tharrtell** · 11-02-2003, 10:35 AM

Questions with regards to the CoP at either SA or SC - are deductions being made for a flutz? Or, have we not had a competition yet where a lady can actually do a lutz? VV was at SA, but it sounds like her programs she had enough other deductions that it wouldn't be easy to tell whether, as compared to her, others received deductions for their flutzes?

**Mathman** · 11-02-2003, 10:42 AM

Rgirl, let's have patience and hope that Speedy will do the right thing. Maybe they will put up the Detailed Scores in PDF in a day or two.

BTW, I am having second thoughts about what I supposedly figured out. The same method does not work for the Technical Components.

I think that an "honest Flutz" counts as a Lutz, with judges taking off points on the GOE as they think best. (?)

Mathman

**dewet** · 11-02-2003, 11:28 AM

Rgirl, the event is still on with the free dance. After today when it's over I'm sure they'll be up.

tharrtell, look at the SA Protocol Deatails to find out if they deducted from flutzers.
protocol details:http://www.isufs.org/results/sa2003/...es_Details.pdf Sasha's lutz combo was worth 7.80, and VV's was worth 8.80. Sasha's was also higher that the base value of a lutz combo of 7.4. I guess they the just add less for a clean flutz.

**tharrtell** · 11-02-2003, 11:36 AM

dewet, thanks. Irks me. Flutz should equal deduction, IMO. I'm a play by the rules, gal, though. Can't help it. Although, firmly convinced that play by the rules gets one just about nowhere in life!

**Mathman** · 11-02-2003, 01:14 PM

In the short program, Sasha got a deduction of -1.60 for her 3L/2T combination. I don't know if that is for a wrong edge take-off, or if she had other problems with it.

In the long program, she got a +0.40.

Vika got a +1.40 in the short, so it must have been quite excellent. She got 0.00 in the long for this element.

Mathman

**bleuchick** · 11-02-2003, 06:27 PM

the protocol details are up now.

http://www.isufs.org/results/sc2003/index.htm

**Rgirl** · 11-05-2003, 05:22 PM

Thanks, Bleuchick. You were right, Mathman. I was having a cow thinking Speedy was going to keep the Detailed Results sekret too and didn't think that, DUH, the competition wasn't over yet. I'm all right now, lol.

So I have my PDF format numbers now and am quite happy

Actually, Ota scored very well in the LP on her TCS, 61.52, whereas Arakawa's was 65.92 and Cohen's was 69.28. For Ota's first season in seniors, this is very impressive! Hopefully this will be a learning year in terms of the technical aspects and that next year she will be a real contender.

BTW, reading the "SC Ladies LP Results" thread brings up another reason why I like the COP. Even from people who were there we were getting reports that Skater X didn't do this but did get credit for it and Skater Y broke the Zayak rule and didn't get dinged for it, etc. At least with the Detailed Results, arguments as to who got credit for what can be settled.

Tharrtell, I think the judges are going by the rules, it's just that the rules aren't black and white. The way I see a Lutz, especially with the women, there are degrees of flutzness. Sometimes the skater is starting to take off on an outside edge but by prerotating 1/4 turn, it starts to go on the inside edge. Other times, the skater never even starts to take off from the outside edge; it's inside all the way. To me, those two jumps should not be judged the same or thrown out as complete non-Lutzes. IMO, the former is a not-so-good Lutz, but still a Lutz, while the latter was never a Lutz at all but a flip.

So when the judges do what Dewet said, "Sasha's lutz combo was worth 7.80, and VV's was worth 8.80. Sasha's was also higher that the base value of a lutz combo of 7.4. I guess they the just add less for a clean flutz," to me that's the right thing to do in a sport like figure skating. In other sports, you either make the down or you don't; you either make the time or not. But in figure skating, at least to me, there are degrees of "cleanliness" in jumps and the best way to approach them is to give less points for the "dirtier" take-offs and landings, but not to discount them entirely. JMO.
Rgirl