Music and Skating

[Buttercup]

Well you also stated that Joannie displayed a "mechanical, point gathering style" at Canadians - which she did not. Joannie was going to Vancouver even if she finished 15th - this performance was not about points but rather about confidence, getting her jumps back, and making a statement. The audience, commentators, press, all my friends who watched, etc. - all expressed the same emotion after watching her - "Wow, she laid it down". This is sport after all.

I used a specific quote as a point of reference - but really meant it to show a philosophical difference, one which has been expressed by Lambiel, Weir, Lyscacek, not to mention Boitano, Hamilton, Button, Mishin, Morozov and so many others.

Janetfan, you were writing about Joannie? I was certain you were referring to Rachael Flatt!

I agree with I love to skate's take on it, if Joannie's goal was to skate like that at Nats, it was a one-time thing, I don't believe it's representative of what she tries to accomplish with her skating.

[janetfan]

Janetfan, you were writing about Joannie? I was certain you were referring to Rachael Flatt!

I agree with I love to skate's take on it, if Joannie's goal was to skate like that at Nats, it was a one-time thing, I don't believe it's representative of what she tries to accomplish with her skating.

I can agree with you and I Love To Skate. Perhaps I should have been more clear. I don't think I said, "Joannie's skating was mechanical, etc.....but used her quote to make a broader point.

mathman has said several times that he sees no difference between the SP and LP these days. Actually, I am beginning to see more freedom and expressive skating in many SP's. Too many LP's do look to me like a "paint by numbers" approach to skating.

Watching LP's at times I think about being set loose in a grocery store with $2,000.00 dolars and being told you have 4 minutes to cram as much stuff into your shopping cart as possible.

Maybe others see most skaters showing us a sense of freedom and originality in their LP's but that feels more like the exception rather than the rule to me today.

[Mathman]

Actually, the initial question on this thread is an interesting one. Do we really remember and cherish the way a skater used music in a competitive performance, long after the preformance is over?

I remember Ilia Kulik landing a huge quad at the 1998 Olympics. I don't remember what music was playing.

The Battle of the Brians was thrilling. I do not remember what either of them skated to.

Two of the most memorable performances of all time (for me) were Michelle Kwan's Red Violin and Song of the Black Swan, as performed at 2000 Worlds and 2001 Worlds. Although I remember the names of the programs, I cannot whistle the tunes of either of these pieces.(The farther a skater strays from Carmen, the harder is is to make the music memorable. )

Exhibitions, now, that's another story. Michelle's East of Eden and Fields of Gold utilized every note. We can't imagine the performance without the music.

[seniorita]

yes but dont tell me you dont remember the yellow kulik costume he skated to same music like evan's lp last year. Thats a good hint?

Brian 1 skated to Napoleon, it is in my ipod as a fav, I dont know Brian 2 what he skated to.

and the good about carmen is that you can bring back the tune any time of the day

[janetfan]

Actually, the initial question on this thread is an interesting one. Do we really remember and cherish the way a skater used music in a competitive performance, long after the preformance is over?

.

There could be several questions raised by Bianchetti's article.
This thought is what I believe is key to her feelings on music and skating:

"Many competitors can execute good and well choreographed programs, highlighted by difficult and spectacular elements, but very few are those who are able to transform a good program into a piece of art, a program that we would like to watch forever."

I am the first to agree this is subjective. The programs I may watch are different that what others like to watch. And our tastes can change. Lately I have been looking at Yags and my respect for his skating has grown. A few months ago I was watching Chen-Lu. After the Olympics it will be someone else.

There are many memorable programs that have been created over the years. I don't think how much we recall the music is the key - but think it has more to do with how the skater was able to combine the choreography with the music to create something unique that touched us emotionally.

[ImaginaryPogue]

How many long programs from any given season pre-COP would you consider great? Lets pick the 2002-2003 season (or any season)

[Mathman]

How many long programs from any given season pre-COP would you consider great? Lets pick the 2002-2003 season (or any season)

I don't remember great programs so much as great performances. The two that stand out from 2002-03 are Michelle Kwan's Aranjuez at Worlds and Shen and Zhou's Turandot.

Both of these I remember as much for the techical excellence as for the artistic/emotional side.

Also, on the issue of "robotically checking off the elements," another way to say the same thing is, you get in a zone and everything just happens automatically. I think this can apply to the artistic components as well as to jumps. My favorite figure skating quote is from Shizuka Arakawa, commenting on skating on cruise control.

By the time I came to, my program was half over.

[janetfan]

I don't remember great programs so much as great performances. The two that stand out from 2002-03 are Michelle Kwan's Aranjuez at Worlds and Shen and Zhou's Turandot.

Both of these I remember as much for the techical excellence as for the artistic/emotional side.

Also, on the issue of "robotically checking off the elements," another way to say the same thing is, you get in a zone and everything just happens automatically. I think this can apply to the artistic components as well as to jumps. My favorite figure skating quote is from Shizuka Arakawa, commenting on skating on cruise control.

I like the quote
I recall Sasha said something similar about her Torino LP, saying something like after her opening mistakes she just forgot about everything and skated the rest of the program from muscle memory.

Pogue mentioned 2002 - and that seems like it should be easy to remember because it was an Olympic year.

I don't know the story about Michelle but I remember she left Carroll and then either changed her LP choreo and maybe also split with Lori only a month or two before the Olympics.

Anyway, Yags and Plushy skated good LP's on their way to winning the the Gold and Silver.
The women, especially Michelle are harder to consider. I am in a minority as I thought Sasha had a very entertaining LP and if she had not missed her opening 3x3 she would have medaled.

Irina's LP was good but she did not skate it so well in SLC.
For moments - well that belonged to Sarah as she had the skate of her life on home ice.

My favorite though was Jamie and David. (already ducking ). Given a little room by mistakes we all saw, they skated so well and whether it was the best Pairs LP - for me it was easily the most inspired.

[colleen o'neill]

But first, Re: Joannie.. I watched that program with bated breath ,knowing the season she'd had up to that point..and I just knew that there would be those who would seize on her use of the word robot in her interview. Putting the whole interview in context , I understood her to be referring to the muscle memory that comes from constant repetition of a program ( that any skater hopes to acheive to counteract the many distractions , nervousness, etc. that can happen in competition ). Let's not forget that although Joannie's English is now very good , she sometimes has to reach to find just the right word.I found the program very controlled,but hardly robotic. It had to boost her confidence to skate that well after her earlier struggles..I hope to see her skate with a little more abandon in Vancouver.

Does she make my list of the most artistic skaters? No....but she's very far from the least , and on those occasions when she is able to let go that little degree extra the whole effect can be pretty enjoyable.

Now, I'm off to wrack my brain about 2003.

[Layfan]

I like your reply and agree with most of it.
My earlier post you so strenuosly objected to references the audience appeal Yukari showed at '08 Worlds and that Mirai just showed at US Natls.
So I agree with you that "charisma" plays a part and I recognize some skaters have more of this intangible quality than others do.

In my case, as a guy I don't feel the charisma of the men as strongly as you might. To me, Lambiel and Abbott are not so different. I say that because Lambiel has no appeal to me past the way he skates and expresses the nuances of the music. I see Abbott as having a similar abilty although his style is more introverted. That is not much of a factor to me because I appreciate that Abbot's skating is so musical and just as expressive in it's own right.

I see very little difference between 2010 Plushy and Joubert. I did see more artistry and much more musicality from Plushy when he was younger.

We all have favorites and for different reasons. I happen to like Laura who has made the "nightnare podium" almost as much as Rachael.
Why is that? They are really totally different skaters but something about both of them apparently bothers many posters.

I like the way Laura moves to the music. Do I also think she is cute? umm. yes I do! Is she my favorite? No, not by a long shot but she is probably my favorite Euro Lady.
The reason I like her is for her expression and musicality. If she didn't have that I would not like her. Kiira is beautiful but her skating is not expressive enough for my taste.

I will never like Joubert as much as Abbot or Lambiel. But that doesn't mean I don't understand why the girls scream so loud for Brian. But it gets down to taste and I prefer the poets over good loking big jumpers. I do think as you pointed out that Joubert and others can and do occassionaly create performance art when they skate.

This is not easy to express. I think Bianchetti is right when she stresses how important music is to skating.
A problem with Cop was mentioned by Beka the other day. There seems to be a very important componet missing in the pcs.

That would relate to the overall effect of a program. Caro's sloppy Silver medal performance at '08 Worlds was used as an example. Apparently the CoP awarded her enough points for Silver (she almost won gold) for an LP that had so many sloppy jumps it was hard to imagine her getting any medal at all.

How her marks were good enough to win Wolrd Silver for a skate like that is hard to imagine. If we were to consider as part of the equation the overall effect of Yuna or Yukari's skating that night - if there was a category for "performance art" then no way could have Caro won a medal. I am not against Caro and think she is an immensly talented skater. But I think her Silver medal shows a clear flaw in CoP scoring. The overall effect of her performance was not great yet she was marked as if she had skated great.

You're a guy? Oh.

Anyway, even for women it's subjective who has charisma and who doesn't. Plushenko and Joubert do nothing for me. I like their skating just fine, especially Plushenko's. But for some reason their substituting flirtation for artistry doesn't resonate with me at all. I much prefer the Jeremy Abbott's brand of artistry. But I have a friend who salivates for Plushenko. Go figure.

I think it's true that most great skaters are remembered not for their jumps. But there are exceptions, like Midori Ito, whose jumping ability was so surpassing for her time that she had something of the "it" factor anyway. But I have this sense that 6.0 was actually nicer to those types of skaters because they had more freedom to choreograph their program in such a way that highlights their strengths and not their weaknesses. Imagine Midori Ito trying to do a CoP program, with the three position spiral requirement. I for one am glad we got to see the 6.0 sytem Midori Ito instead.

Maybe CoP gives an advantage to the jumpers in the sense that it may not punish hard enough for sloppy positions and robotic skating. But it doesn't do anything for the jumpers in the sense of giving them the chance to put on the most charismatic performance they can.

The Midori-Kristi rivalry was a true competition between the artist and the athlete. But it was fun to watch. Under this system, I sometimes get the sense that the competitors are forced to try to be the same skater. I understand it's meant to make things fairer and more objective. But I think it's killing the individuality of the sport a little. The kind of individuality that let Midori Ito shine in her own way.

[Mathman]

Pogue mentioned 2002 - and that seems like it should be easy to remember because it was an Olympic year.

I think Imaginary Pogue meant ther following year. But anyway...

In my opinion there were two memorable programs at the 2002 Olympics, both short programs. Yagudin's Winter and Berezhnaya and Sikharudlidze's Lady Caliph.

My favorite though was Jamie and David. (already ducking ). Given a little room by mistakes we all saw, they skated so well and whether it was the best Pairs LP - for me it was easily the most inspired.

That is an interesting choice on a thread about music. Sale and Pelletiere abandoned Orchid for the musically and choreographically slighter Love Story, their LP from two years previous. Orchid (Rachmaninov) and, for that matter, the previous season's Tristan and Isolde (Wagner) had much greater artistic depth. (OT -- I have a copy of the CD, with liner notes autographed by Lori Nichol. )

Anyway, Jamie and David struggled all season with Orchid. In the Grand Prix Final that year the skaters had to do two different LPs. So Jamie and David did Orchid and Love Story. Love Story was an easier program, it worked much better for them, so they decided to use it in the Olympics.

Ironically, Elena and Anton went the other way. Their previous season LP was their all-time masterpiece (IMHO), Charlie Chaplin. But for the Olympics they went with the more "classic" (i.e., generic) Meditation.

[evangeline]

Ironically, Elena and Anton went the other way. Their previous season LP was their all-time masterpiece (IMHO), Charlie Chaplin. But for the Olympics they went with the more "classic" (i.e., generic) Meditation.

If I recall correctly, Tamara Moskvina decided to go the more 'classic' route with Meditation because they had skated to Charlie Chaplin better than a flawed S/P at 2001 Worlds, but S/P still won anyways. Apparently some judges told Moskvina that Chaplin was too "exhibition-like" for a competitive LP. Which is a pity, because Chaplin really was a wonderful program.

And ITA about Yagudin's Winter and B/S's Lady Caliph. Those SPs deserved 6.0s all across the board and unanimous 1st place ordinals.

[seniorita]

But I have a friend who salivates for Plushenko. Go figure.

Join the clubAlthough I m not sure what salivates means, i got many translations.


What are you saying, 2003 was great year!!! Michelle Aranguez, Plushy St Peters 300, Stephane Chocolat, Arakawa Swan lake (), S/Z ex time to say goodbye, Solokova Notre Damme, Irina La Traviata..I dont remember other now...

oh i remembered Sasha Malaguena. Although I liked it next year with the canary dress!

[janetfan]

I think Imaginary Pogue meant ther following year. But anyway...

That is an interesting choice on a thread about music. Sale and Pelletiere abandoned Orchid for the musically and choreographically slighter Love Story, their LP from two years previous. Orchid (Rachmaninov) and, for that matter, the previous season's Tristan and Isolde (Wagner) had much greater artistic depth. (OT -- I have a copy of the CD, with liner notes autographed by Lori Nichol. )

.

I didn't think much about the music - just answered from memory about which programs I remembered. Being that it was part of the "scandal" it seems impossible to forget it.

They skated last, or atleast after the Russians and knew they had to be perfect and that''s how they skated.
You mentioned "Winter" but Pogue had said "LP's.

Seems like I am not the only one confused. BTW, I am not a big "Rachmaninov" fan.


The point of Bianchetti's article as I understand it has nothing to do with "great music makes great programs."

I understand it as skating musically is important and part of what helps make certain programs memorable. I don't see it as Bianchetti claiming a great program depends on great music.

ETA: Speaking of exhibitions Kristi comes to mind. She skated to some programs with light/Pop music that were performed so "musically" that I still remember them. She was such a versatile skater, able to handle so many different styles of music.
Her range and abilty to handle various styles of choreo sets her apart from most skaters.

[Mathman]

Join the clubAlthough I m not sure what salivates means, i got many translations.

It means, when you see Plushy it's like when a hungry dog sees a big, juicy steak.

Solokova Notre Damme

How could I forget that one! If Michelle hadn't been Michelle, this seven-triple performance would have won the world championship.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbIKXBwb670