CoP or 6.0: Different Podium Finishes? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

CoP or 6.0: Different Podium Finishes?

Fossi

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I highly doubt the programs would've been structured the same for these skaters if they were under COP rather than 6.0 Just sayin.
 

Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
I agreed with you on Costner. However, I don't agree under 6.0, it would've been much different because the judges always favored Europeans even if undeservedly. And while I am at it, I think under 6.0, skaters like Kostner will be favored more because her skating is actually nice to look at despite everything. Also, I think Mao will do better under 6.0 given the lenient UR calls. Kim will do well, but I think Rochette will do the best since she has almost a full set of triples. Miki wouldn't do so well because she's just jumps but lacks artistry. The CoP is better for her and for Flatt. Mirai will do better under 6.0.

Thanks, but I disagree with you about results. I have followed skating more years in 6.0 than in CoP. I can tell you that falls (and jump imperfections) were serious deductions in 6.0, particularly in major competitions. Brian Orser lost to Brian Boitano in 88 O's because of a slight bobble in the FS. Remember 2002 ladies? Kwan had a little fall (down-and-up in a split second--not a sprawl-&-slide) in the FS . By a majority of opinion, it cost her the gold. Without it there is no doubt that she would have climbed to the top podium! In 2008, Kostner was at a loss in her interview with Caruthers to explain her amazing silver result! Regardless, she will always be in the records as 2008 World Ladies Silver Medalist (without an asterisk)! And with that said, I will not be shocked if Kostner hits the podium at this Olympics! She's a bit steadier this year under Carroll, and still fast as lightning! My best wishes to her.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
COP --> 6.0
2006 Torino- Fumie bronze

6.0 --> COP
1998 Nagano - No medal for Lu Chen
1994 Lillehammer - Nancy gold

Perhaps. But Fumie would have received lower second marks anyway. Nancy might have been emotional underdog under whichever system.

But true it is likely that Lu chen didn't medal however moving her performances might have been. Too many URs.
 

tommyk75

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 19, 2004
Interesting idea for a thread!

For me, Midori Ito instantly comes to mind. She was SO technically advanced for her time that they just didn't know what to do with her. At the '88 Games, she did every kind of triple (except the axel, which she'd of course be the first one to do later), including a triple-triple combination. Katarina Witt won the gold with an artistically beautiful program, but she landed only two kinds of triples (two triple toes and two triple salchows; she doubled the triple loop). Personally, under ANY system, I thought Midori should've won a medal, especially considering that she did a clean short program as well with the hardest combination (double loop-triple loop) out of the top skaters. (Personally, I would've had the medalists in this order: Manley-Ito-Witt.)

Also, I'm not so sure Lu Chen wouldn't have won the bronze in Nagano. She had problems with some triples, but I seem to recall EVERYONE did, aside from Tara and Michelle. I'm pretty sure Maria Butyrskaiya was fourth, but while she stayed on her feet, just about all of her landings were shaky and would've gotten negative GOEs. And, as we all know, Lu Chen was artistically superb that night and would've gotten great component marks.

And yes, like others have said, there's no way Oksana would've beaten Nancy (or Lu Chen, as a matter of fact) that one year.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Interesting idea for a thread!

For me, Midori Ito instantly comes to mind. She was SO technically advanced for her time that they just didn't know what to do with her. At the '88 Games, she did every kind of triple (except the axel, which she'd of course be the first one to do later), including a triple-triple combination. Katarina Witt won the gold with an artistically beautiful program, but she landed only two kinds of triples (two triple toes and two triple salchows; she doubled the triple loop). Personally, under ANY system, I thought Midori should've won a medal, especially considering that she did a clean short program as well with the hardest combination (double loop-triple loop) out of the top skaters. (Personally, I would've had the medalists in this order: Manley-Ito-Witt.)

Also, I'm not so sure Lu Chen wouldn't have won the bronze in Nagano. She had problems with some triples, but I seem to recall EVERYONE did, aside from Tara and Michelle. I'm pretty sure Maria Butyrskaiya was fourth, but while she stayed on her feet, just about all of her landings were shaky and would've gotten negative GOEs. And, as we all know, Lu Chen was artistically superb that night and would've gotten great component marks.

And yes, like others have said, there's no way Oksana would've beaten Nancy (or Lu Chen, as a matter of fact) that one year.

That's interesting about Midori Ito at the 88 Olympics... Debbie's LP was a disaster... But weren't figures still part of the equation back then? Maybe Midori Ito was so far behind after figures that she couldn't catch up. In that case, it's not so much 6.0. that held her back as figures. And she did win a silver medal in 92 - even with a fall in her LP. Well deserved. Her LP program after the fall was awesome.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
That's interesting about Midori Ito at the 88 Olympics... Debbie's LP was a disaster... But weren't figures still part of the equation back then? Maybe Midori Ito was so far behind after figures that she couldn't catch up. In that case, it's not so much 6.0. that held her back as figures. .

After the figures and SP Debbi was 1st, Kati 2nd and Liz 3rd.

Here is an excerpt from an old NY times article:

"One exception was Midori Ito of Japan, who had skated earlier because of her typically low ranking -10th - after the compulsories.

But her short program was virtually without error, with the high, crisp jumps for which she is best known. Winning 5.7's and 5.8's for technical merit and a range of 5.5 to 5.8 for presentation, she jumped two places into eighth. Those were unusually high marks for one skating in her position, 17th."
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Ito deserved to EASILY win both the SP and LP in 1988. That she didn't is one of the biggest crimes the sport has seen. It was literally miles ahead of everyone else.
 

Sk8n Mama

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I think this is too hard to say because the skaters now have CoP-friendly programs. How many Bielmann's did we see before CoP? Or changes of edge on spins?

The one skater that comes to mind for me would be Elvis Stojko. Despite his spectacular jumps, he would have been crushed in a CoP situation because the spins were weak and basic & transitions were basically non-existent.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I think this is too hard to say because the skaters now have CoP-friendly programs. How many Bielmann's did we see before CoP? Or changes of edge on spins?

Yeah, those things were rare and then became common once there was an explicit reward for doing them.

The one skater that comes to mind for me would be Elvis Stojko. Despite his spectacular jumps, he would have been crushed in a CoP situation because the spins were weak and basic & transitions were basically non-existent.

Depends how willing he would have been to adapt. Stojko did tend to have fast spins, so at least he could have gotten positive GOEs except wher he needed to hold a camel position. Wasn't built for the flexibility features but given the incentive he could have developed enough other features to get at least level 2 and 3 if not 4.

Some of his programs had more transitions than others. So again, would he have been willing to push even further in that direction or would he prefer to focus on racking up TES points.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
That's interesting about Midori Ito at the 88 Olympics... Debbie's LP was a disaster... But weren't figures still part of the equation back then? Maybe Midori Ito was so far behind after figures that she couldn't catch up. In that case, it's not so much 6.0. that held her back as figures. And she did win a silver medal in 92 - even with a fall in her LP. Well deserved. Her LP program after the fall was awesome.

it wasn't all figure. Wasn't she out of the top 5 for the short program alone and fifth for the long program? She should be first in both programs and should medal even with figures factored in.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
it wasn't all figure. Wasn't she out of the top 5 for the short program alone and fifth for the long program? She should be first in both programs and should medal even with figures factored in.

Yes, BoP brought that up too. So, there are two things to consider.
1. One is whether she was too far behind after figures to win gold no matter how well she placed in the SP and LP
2. Leaving figures aside, whether she was fairly scored/placed in the SP and the LP. And whether she would've had a shot at the bronze or silver if she had been fairly scored in those events.

I've been meaning to go back and watch her 88 programs again ever since this was brought up....
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Ito was 4th in the short program, but still out of the top 5 in the combined standings after short program + figures.

If the short and long programs had been judged exactly as they were but there had been no figures, the Calgary results would have been:
Manley 3 1
Witt 1 2
Ito 4 3
Thomas 2 4

If the mindset of the judges had been different, then the rankings in each program might have been different than they actually were.

And if the rules had been different, the skaters would have prepared differently and planned their programs differently.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Ito was 4th in the short program, but still out of the top 5 in the combined standings after short program + figures.

If the short and long programs had been judged exactly as they were but there had been no figures, the Calgary results would have been:
Manley 3 1
Witt 1 2
Ito 4 3
Thomas 2 4

If the mindset of the judges had been different, then the rankings in each program might have been different than they actually were.

And if the rules had been different, the skaters would have prepared differently and planned their programs differently.

Really?? Manley would have won? Wait, do you mean she would have been first in the LP or overall?
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Manley was first in the LP. I thought that was common knowledge.

That's the order of placement for the top four in the short and long programs.
http://winter-olympic-memories.com/html/results/jp_3d/15_calgary/15_figure/15_figure_w.htm

If only the short and long programs counted and were judged exactly as they actually were, that would have been the combined order of finish for those two phases.

Once we start imagining what would have happened if the programs had been judged differently or skated differently, then it's all speculation.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
Ito was 4th in the short program, but still out of the top 5 in the combined standings after short program + figures.

If the short and long programs had been judged exactly as they were but there had been no figures, the Calgary results would have been:
Manley 3 1
Witt 1 2
Ito 4 3
Thomas 2 4

If the mindset of the judges had been different, then the rankings in each program might have been different than they actually were.

And if the rules had been different, the skaters would have prepared differently and planned their programs differently.

It's a bit strange to put Ito's LP 3rd when she did all triples except for axcel. I wonder if Mao in 2005-6 season did not win had she been judged under 6.0 because despite being a jumping bean her programs were still so girlish compared to Cohen's maturity for example.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
It's a bit strange to put Ito's LP 3rd when she did all triples except for axcel. I wonder if Mao in 2005-6 season did not win had she been judged under 6.0 because despite being a jumping bean her programs were still so girlish compared to Cohen's maturity for example.

Maybe, but then again, Judges loved Witt. Also back then the scoring was so different from now that it's hard to compare. I think that's like pre-6.0 age because figures was still installed, and probably jumps weren't as important as they are now. Jumps started becoming more of a factor in early nineties where two women were trying the double axels and Kristi even felt pressured to try it herself in order to win. But then after Ito retired and Harding got banned, no women tried it for a long time, and it was back to a focus on artistry that was led by Michelle Kwan. However, CoP brought the technical difficuly back to prominence again and so it kind of goes in cycles.
 

schiele

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 13, 2009
Maybe, but then again, Judges loved Witt. Also back then the scoring was so different from now that it's hard to compare. I think that's like pre-6.0 age because figures was still installed, and probably jumps weren't as important as they are now. Jumps started becoming more of a factor in early nineties where two women were trying the double axels and Kristi even felt pressured to try it herself in order to win. But then after Ito retired and Harding got banned, no women tried it for a long time, and it was back to a focus on artistry that was led by Michelle Kwan. However, CoP brought the technical difficuly back to prominence again and so it kind of goes in cycles.

You mean triple axel? :) Although tech difficulty is back, we see little of it in ladies though, with so many going back to non-risky jump elements especially given the huge number of URs. Now it's like little tech difficulty and little artistry for most ladies.. :laugh:
I always wonder if Irina S would've done so well under CoP with the UR scrutiny we have right now? Most of her 3+3s could've been easily downgraded.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Maybe, but then again, Judges loved Witt. Also back then the scoring was so different from now that it's hard to compare. I think that's like pre-6.0 age because figures was still installed, and probably jumps weren't as important as they are now. Jumps started becoming more of a factor in early nineties where two women were trying the double axels and Kristi even felt pressured to try it herself in order to win. But then after Ito retired and Harding got banned, no women tried it for a long time, and it was back to a focus on artistry that was led by Michelle Kwan. However, CoP brought the technical difficuly back to prominence again and so it kind of goes in cycles.

Reputation, which is still one of the very most important factors in CoP scoring was unfortunately a big factor in 6.0 judging.
Kati was the defending OC and had won many WCs heading into Calgary.

Midori finished 10th in the figures. The Gold medal was gone for her after the first phase of the competition.

She should have placed higher in the SP and LP but her leg wrap hurt her. Her posture, positions and extensions hurt her.
She did not have the 3A at Calgary. I don't think the judges wanted to have an Olympic champion who had a leg wrap, was not always so graceful, and was totally deficient in compulsary figures.

I did not care much for Kati's SP - and the Americans complained loudly that she should not have won the SP.
As to her LP - fans may love it or hate it - but there can be no denying "Carmen" has an iconic place in skating history.


Will Rachael win the OGM if she skates perfectly in both programs and the other girls all have mistakes?
I don't think so - because so many other skaters are so clearly superior to Rachael at non-jump elements the judges will decide they need more than jumps in an Olympic champion. Just as it was in '88 it would be the same in 2010.
 
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Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
I wonder how much her leg wrap mattered. As I look at videos, her leg wrap does not bother me at all, even though I have been picky about Nakano's leg wrap.

I just read an interview of hers in Japanese (a magazine called "Number"). She says that 1988 Olympics was really enjoyable. Ms. Witt was beautiful whereas she was short and not pretty. So she just wanted to do her best to the fullest and was very happy to get the standing ovation. As a result, she placed fifth. Ms. Witt won with two triples.

But then the cohort changed next season and she won the world champs, landing 3A. Then in 90's figures were abandoned, which was lucky for her.

In 92, she went to the Olympics as a favorite. (still under the 6.0 system). ..... She herself also grew performance-wise; she could dance tango well instead of turning it into Dango (i.e., "dumplings" in Japanese).
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I wonder how much her leg wrap mattered. As I look at videos, her leg wrap does not bother me at all, even though I have been picky about Nakano's leg wrap.

.

I am not sure what judges thought about Midori's leg wrap but can't imagine it helped her artistic marks.
What about Yukari? Is CoP giving her + goe for leg wrapped jumps?
 
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