CoP or 6.0: Different Podium Finishes? | Golden Skate

CoP or 6.0: Different Podium Finishes?

Marrymeyunakim

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 4, 2009
Given all the debate about figure skating scoring, I was wondering if there had been any cases where the 6.0 system led a skater to win or have a podium finish even if their skate, by CoP, would not have warranted it? Or has there been a case where CoP awarded a skater with a podium finish where their skate, under the 6.0 system, would not have been placed so highly? :eek:hwell:

For all the talk of Sarah Hughes, I have heard that her skate in SLC was flawed in that some of her best elements, her jumps, were underrotated (and would have been judged as such under CoP), but the 6.0 system awarded her daring and audacity to attempt such a program. I am new to figure skating so I don't know about this case but I would love to know.
 
Last edited:

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
That's always a fun possiblity to consider - and I know that on FSU, people play judging games occasionally. You have to remember, though, that if skaters in the 6.0 era were under a different system their programs would have been constructed differently, so evaluating 6.0 skates with IJS criteria doesn't tell you much. For instance, yes, Sarah Hughes had poor technique - but if she were under IJS, she would probably have left out the 3Lz and maybe done different combinations. I don't think she would have won, but who knows what might have happened; Shizuka Arakawa wasn't going for the hardest program in Turin.

That having been said, we all know that at least officially, the IJS was a reaction to the pairs controversy in SLC. Had that event been judged under the current system with the programs as they were, B/S would have had such a huge lead out of the SP that the LP wouldn't have been a big factor in determining the result (though I believe they would have won that, too).
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I suppose if there were a Technical caller in SLC he might have caught some flaws by Sarah, but the bottom line lin SLC was that all the top contestants (Sasha, Irinia, Michelle) had noticeable flaws too. Sarah skated the cleanest.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Slutskaya definitely would have won in 2002 under CoP if you put those performances directly into the system. There's no telling if the skating would have been the same if CoP had been in place, though.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Slutskaya definitely would have won in 2002 under CoP if you put those performances directly into the system. There's no telling if the skating would have been the same if CoP had been in place, though.
I do not doubt you but we will never know for sure. In those days, I believe there was the antiAmerican group plus the lingering Soviet bloc group v. the lonely proKwan/Sasha group.
IMO, I would say Irina had the Tech but she never had a special performance in competition.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Under CoP I don't think the judges would have got away with giving Grishuk and Platov gold at the 1998 Olympics, as they had a fall in the free dance, which of course would be more heavily penalized under CoP.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Under CoP I don't think the judges would have got away with giving Grishuk and Platov gold at the 1998 Olympics, as they had a fall in the free dance, which of course would be more heavily penalized under CoP.

No, they certainly did not have a fall in the free dance at 1998 Olympics.

They had a fall in the free dance at 1994 Worlds. And in the OD at 1998 Europeans (they placed 2nd in that phase).

At 1998 Olympics, their biggest mistake was a touchdown on one step of the compulsory dance.

Is one of those what you're thinking of?

With the current system, it's pretty clearly spelled out how much of a penalty there is for falling. If the team is far enough ahead of their competitors, they might make up enough points in other areas to offset the points lost in the fall.

It also helps if the fall is by one partner only (1.00 as opposed to 2.00 deduction), just a quick down-and-up with no gap in the dance requiring additional deduction, and not on a point-scoring element where points would be lost in GOE and levels of the element, or it might end up not counting at all.

Dances were constructed differently in those days, though, without point-earning step sequences, so any fall on steps would just get the 1.00 fall deduction according to today's rules.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Well, B/S would've been so far ahead of S/P after the short program (and S/P did have a fall adding the deduction) in 2002 that it wouldn't have mattered who won the long - B/S would be the "uncontested" winners (inasmuch as there is such a thing in figure skating).

I wonder if Drobiazko/Vanagas would've made up ground on the top four at the same Olympics.

Presumably Kwan's PCS would've gotten her the gold in Nagano, and I don't think Chen would've won bronze either.

Kerrigan would be a winner now. And Midori Ito would've won bronze in 1988.
 

Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
Under 6.0, Kostner probably would not have made it to the top five at World's 2008. Under CoP she won silver. I love Kostner and her skating (when she's on), but that judging was a travesty--a step out or shaky landing on nearly every triple. Take a look, very insteresting. Mao won gold--with a skid into the boards on a 3-axel attempt, Kostner silver, Kim Yu Na, bronze and Nakano 4th. Yu Na and Nakano wuz robbed, big time!
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Under 6.0, Kostner probably would not have made it to the top five at World's 2008. Under CoP she won silver. I love Kostner and her skating (when she's on), but that judging was a travesty--a step out or shaky landing on nearly every triple. Take a look, very insteresting. Mao won gold--with a skid into the boards on a 3-axel attempt, Kostner silver, Kim Yu Na, bronze and Nakano 4th. Yu Na and Nakano wuz robbed, big time!

IMAO. Mao would've won under any system because although she fell, there were no major mistakes. Under 6.0, she wouldn't be hit with edge calls or URs, so she would've won the SP and come in 2nd for the LP. I remember Michelle also won with a fall at one major competition. Yuna was too far behind in the short to catch up. And it was harder to catch up under the 6.0 system than the CoP. Bottomline is no one skated clean at that worlds, so I don't think anyone was majorly robbed.
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Nancy Kerrigan would've won over Oksana Baiul in 1994 in the LP, easily. Oksana's LP skate in Lillehammer was shockingly devoid of complexity and content, even by 6.0 standards. There were no transitions, footwork, and the spins were all of the simplest variety. Nancy, on the other hand, filled her program with lots of workmanlike content. The COP loves to reward complexity, Oksana wouldn't have stood a chance. But then, where would we be? A world in which Nancy Kerrigan is the triumphant Olympic champion after her devastating attack by an ill-mannered rival. We'd never be rid of Kerrigan and her lumbering, robotic skating. ::shudders::
 

Eddie Lee

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 19, 2007
IMAO. Mao would've won under any system because although she fell, there were no major mistakes. Under 6.0, she wouldn't be hit with edge calls or URs, so she would've won the SP and come in 2nd for the LP. I remember Michelle also won with a fall at one major competition. Yuna was too far behind in the short to catch up. And it was harder to catch up under the 6.0 system than the CoP. Bottomline is no one skated clean at that worlds, so I don't think anyone was majorly robbed.

Really??? If Kostner had been placed appropriately, Kim would have gotten silver, and Nakano, bronze. Especially sad for Nakano--leg wrap and all. Take another look at Kostner's disastrous performance....and while you're at it, take a peek at her fabulous exhibition number.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I don't think Nancy was all that, but her performance was definitely not robotic.

The Nancy vs. Oksana debate will never end, though.

1992 and 2006 are the only Olympics of the past 30 years where everyone agrees with the Female Gold Medalist.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Really??? If Kostner had been placed appropriately, Kim would have gotten silver, and Nakano, bronze. Especially sad for Nakano--leg wrap and all. Take another look at Kostner's disastrous performance....and while you're at it, take a peek at her fabulous exhibition number.

I agreed with you on Costner. However, I don't agree under 6.0, it would've been much different because the judges always favored Europeans even if undeservedly. And while I am at it, I think under 6.0, skaters like Kostner will be favored more because her skating is actually nice to look at despite everything. Also, I think Mao will do better under 6.0 given the lenient UR calls. Kim will do well, but I think Rochette will do the best since she has almost a full set of triples. Miki wouldn't do so well because she's just jumps but lacks artistry. The CoP is better for her and for Flatt. Mirai will do better under 6.0.
 
Last edited:

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I don't think Nancy was all that, but her performance was definitely not robotic.

The Nancy vs. Oksana debate will never end, though.

1992 and 2006 are the only Olympics of the past 30 years where everyone agrees with the Female Gold Medalist.

I agree, Nancy wasn't robotic but her style was so distinctive. It's a bit love or hate it. I can never decide. Sometime I hate it. Other times I like it just because it is so different.

I think she would have won under CoP for sure. But obviously, Oksana would have never done such a simple program under CoP. I don't know if she was capable of difficult combination jumps... maybe her time would have come later. That would have been nice. I always thought it was such a pity and Oksana had such a short competitive career. I'm a fan of her skating but she could have been even better, barring injuries and such. Much better.
 

FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Miki wouldn't do so well because she's just jumps but lacks artistry. The CoP is better for her and for Flatt. Mirai will do better under 6.0.
Under 6.0, Miki was buried even with triple lutz triple loop, quad Sal and no UR. Fortunately for me, the skaters I kinda like and like are competing in the right climate. Oh, how I wish Midori Ito can compete now. She will lay down 8 triples program and kick everyone to the curb. All of her jumps are like +3 GOE.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
No, they certainly did not have a fall in the free dance at 1998 Olympics.

They had a fall in the free dance at 1994 Worlds. And in the OD at 1998 Europeans (they placed 2nd in that phase).

At 1998 Olympics, their biggest mistake was a touchdown on one step of the compulsory dance.

Is one of those what you're thinking of?

With the current system, it's pretty clearly spelled out how much of a penalty there is for falling. If the team is far enough ahead of their competitors, they might make up enough points in other areas to offset the points lost in the fall.

It also helps if the fall is by one partner only (1.00 as opposed to 2.00 deduction), just a quick down-and-up with no gap in the dance requiring additional deduction, and not on a point-scoring element where points would be lost in GOE and levels of the element, or it might end up not counting at all.

Dances were constructed differently in those days, though, without point-earning step sequences, so any fall on steps would just get the 1.00 fall deduction according to today's rules.

It must have been one of those others then. Idk, I was young.. it was during their Joan of Arc program IIRC
 

hikki

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 18, 2007
Country
Japan
Dunno about the LP but Irina would've had such a big lead over Michelle (well she should've under 6.0 anyway) after Salt Lake SP with higher TES, SS and transitions.

COP --> 6.0
2009 Worlds- Miki silver (no UR on 3/3 in short)
2008 Worlds- Yu-Na silver, Nakano bronze
2006 Torino- Fumie bronze

6.0 --> COP
2002 Salt Lake- Honda bronze Goebel out (Takeshi would've received much much higher PCS no?)
1998 Nagano - No medal for Lu Chen
1994 Lillehammer - Nancy gold (And I do think she's robotic)
1994 Lillehammer- Gordeeva & Grinkov silver with less difficult SBS and the mistakes? Dunno... then again they would've got higher PCS.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Is this the program you're thinking of?

I never heard it referred to as Joan of Arc. They made a number of different statements of what the program was about, so they might have said Joan of Arc at some point.

IIRC they did fall in that program the first time they skated it at a fall competition -- Lalique?

As you see in the link, no visible errors at the Olympics.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Is this the program you're thinking of?

I never heard it referred to as Joan of Arc. They made a number of different statements of what the program was about, so they might have said Joan of Arc at some point.

IIRC they did fall in that program the first time they skated it at a fall competition -- Lalique?

As you see in the link, no visible errors at the Olympics.

Yeah, that's the one. I remember some Canadian commentator saying it was about Joan of Arc. I re-watched it earlier today actually, since I haven't seen it in over 10 years, and I saw that there were no mistakes at the Olympics.
 
Top