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Thread: CoP or 6.0: Different Podium Finishes?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Miki wouldn't do so well because she's just jumps but lacks artistry. The CoP is better for her and for Flatt. Mirai will do better under 6.0.
    Under 6.0, Miki was buried even with triple lutz triple loop, quad Sal and no UR. Fortunately for me, the skaters I kinda like and like are competing in the right climate. Oh, how I wish Midori Ito can compete now. She will lay down 8 triples program and kick everyone to the curb. All of her jumps are like +3 GOE.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    No, they certainly did not have a fall in the free dance at 1998 Olympics.

    They had a fall in the free dance at 1994 Worlds. And in the OD at 1998 Europeans (they placed 2nd in that phase).

    At 1998 Olympics, their biggest mistake was a touchdown on one step of the compulsory dance.

    Is one of those what you're thinking of?

    With the current system, it's pretty clearly spelled out how much of a penalty there is for falling. If the team is far enough ahead of their competitors, they might make up enough points in other areas to offset the points lost in the fall.

    It also helps if the fall is by one partner only (1.00 as opposed to 2.00 deduction), just a quick down-and-up with no gap in the dance requiring additional deduction, and not on a point-scoring element where points would be lost in GOE and levels of the element, or it might end up not counting at all.

    Dances were constructed differently in those days, though, without point-earning step sequences, so any fall on steps would just get the 1.00 fall deduction according to today's rules.
    It must have been one of those others then. Idk, I was young.. it was during their Joan of Arc program IIRC

  3. #18
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    Dunno about the LP but Irina would've had such a big lead over Michelle (well she should've under 6.0 anyway) after Salt Lake SP with higher TES, SS and transitions.

    COP --> 6.0
    2009 Worlds- Miki silver (no UR on 3/3 in short)
    2008 Worlds- Yu-Na silver, Nakano bronze
    2006 Torino- Fumie bronze

    6.0 --> COP
    2002 Salt Lake- Honda bronze Goebel out (Takeshi would've received much much higher PCS no?)
    1998 Nagano - No medal for Lu Chen
    1994 Lillehammer - Nancy gold (And I do think she's robotic)
    1994 Lillehammer- Gordeeva & Grinkov silver with less difficult SBS and the mistakes? Dunno... then again they would've got higher PCS.

  4. #19
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    Is this the program you're thinking of?

    I never heard it referred to as Joan of Arc. They made a number of different statements of what the program was about, so they might have said Joan of Arc at some point.

    IIRC they did fall in that program the first time they skated it at a fall competition -- Lalique?

    As you see in the link, no visible errors at the Olympics.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Is this the program you're thinking of?

    I never heard it referred to as Joan of Arc. They made a number of different statements of what the program was about, so they might have said Joan of Arc at some point.

    IIRC they did fall in that program the first time they skated it at a fall competition -- Lalique?

    As you see in the link, no visible errors at the Olympics.
    Yeah, that's the one. I remember some Canadian commentator saying it was about Joan of Arc. I re-watched it earlier today actually, since I haven't seen it in over 10 years, and I saw that there were no mistakes at the Olympics.

  6. #21
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    I highly doubt the programs would've been structured the same for these skaters if they were under COP rather than 6.0 Just sayin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I agreed with you on Costner. However, I don't agree under 6.0, it would've been much different because the judges always favored Europeans even if undeservedly. And while I am at it, I think under 6.0, skaters like Kostner will be favored more because her skating is actually nice to look at despite everything. Also, I think Mao will do better under 6.0 given the lenient UR calls. Kim will do well, but I think Rochette will do the best since she has almost a full set of triples. Miki wouldn't do so well because she's just jumps but lacks artistry. The CoP is better for her and for Flatt. Mirai will do better under 6.0.
    Thanks, but I disagree with you about results. I have followed skating more years in 6.0 than in CoP. I can tell you that falls (and jump imperfections) were serious deductions in 6.0, particularly in major competitions. Brian Orser lost to Brian Boitano in 88 O's because of a slight bobble in the FS. Remember 2002 ladies? Kwan had a little fall (down-and-up in a split second--not a sprawl-&-slide) in the FS . By a majority of opinion, it cost her the gold. Without it there is no doubt that she would have climbed to the top podium! In 2008, Kostner was at a loss in her interview with Caruthers to explain her amazing silver result! Regardless, she will always be in the records as 2008 World Ladies Silver Medalist (without an asterisk)! And with that said, I will not be shocked if Kostner hits the podium at this Olympics! She's a bit steadier this year under Carroll, and still fast as lightning! My best wishes to her.

  8. #23
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    COP --> 6.0
    2006 Torino- Fumie bronze

    6.0 --> COP
    1998 Nagano - No medal for Lu Chen
    1994 Lillehammer - Nancy gold
    Perhaps. But Fumie would have received lower second marks anyway. Nancy might have been emotional underdog under whichever system.

    But true it is likely that Lu chen didn't medal however moving her performances might have been. Too many URs.

  9. #24
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    Interesting idea for a thread!

    For me, Midori Ito instantly comes to mind. She was SO technically advanced for her time that they just didn't know what to do with her. At the '88 Games, she did every kind of triple (except the axel, which she'd of course be the first one to do later), including a triple-triple combination. Katarina Witt won the gold with an artistically beautiful program, but she landed only two kinds of triples (two triple toes and two triple salchows; she doubled the triple loop). Personally, under ANY system, I thought Midori should've won a medal, especially considering that she did a clean short program as well with the hardest combination (double loop-triple loop) out of the top skaters. (Personally, I would've had the medalists in this order: Manley-Ito-Witt.)

    Also, I'm not so sure Lu Chen wouldn't have won the bronze in Nagano. She had problems with some triples, but I seem to recall EVERYONE did, aside from Tara and Michelle. I'm pretty sure Maria Butyrskaiya was fourth, but while she stayed on her feet, just about all of her landings were shaky and would've gotten negative GOEs. And, as we all know, Lu Chen was artistically superb that night and would've gotten great component marks.

    And yes, like others have said, there's no way Oksana would've beaten Nancy (or Lu Chen, as a matter of fact) that one year.

  10. #25
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommyk75 View Post
    Interesting idea for a thread!

    For me, Midori Ito instantly comes to mind. She was SO technically advanced for her time that they just didn't know what to do with her. At the '88 Games, she did every kind of triple (except the axel, which she'd of course be the first one to do later), including a triple-triple combination. Katarina Witt won the gold with an artistically beautiful program, but she landed only two kinds of triples (two triple toes and two triple salchows; she doubled the triple loop). Personally, under ANY system, I thought Midori should've won a medal, especially considering that she did a clean short program as well with the hardest combination (double loop-triple loop) out of the top skaters. (Personally, I would've had the medalists in this order: Manley-Ito-Witt.)

    Also, I'm not so sure Lu Chen wouldn't have won the bronze in Nagano. She had problems with some triples, but I seem to recall EVERYONE did, aside from Tara and Michelle. I'm pretty sure Maria Butyrskaiya was fourth, but while she stayed on her feet, just about all of her landings were shaky and would've gotten negative GOEs. And, as we all know, Lu Chen was artistically superb that night and would've gotten great component marks.

    And yes, like others have said, there's no way Oksana would've beaten Nancy (or Lu Chen, as a matter of fact) that one year.
    That's interesting about Midori Ito at the 88 Olympics... Debbie's LP was a disaster... But weren't figures still part of the equation back then? Maybe Midori Ito was so far behind after figures that she couldn't catch up. In that case, it's not so much 6.0. that held her back as figures. And she did win a silver medal in 92 - even with a fall in her LP. Well deserved. Her LP program after the fall was awesome.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    That's interesting about Midori Ito at the 88 Olympics... Debbie's LP was a disaster... But weren't figures still part of the equation back then? Maybe Midori Ito was so far behind after figures that she couldn't catch up. In that case, it's not so much 6.0. that held her back as figures. .
    After the figures and SP Debbi was 1st, Kati 2nd and Liz 3rd.

    Here is an excerpt from an old NY times article:

    "One exception was Midori Ito of Japan, who had skated earlier because of her typically low ranking -10th - after the compulsories.

    But her short program was virtually without error, with the high, crisp jumps for which she is best known. Winning 5.7's and 5.8's for technical merit and a range of 5.5 to 5.8 for presentation, she jumped two places into eighth. Those were unusually high marks for one skating in her position, 17th."

  12. #27
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Ito deserved to EASILY win both the SP and LP in 1988. That she didn't is one of the biggest crimes the sport has seen. It was literally miles ahead of everyone else.

  13. #28
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    I think this is too hard to say because the skaters now have CoP-friendly programs. How many Bielmann's did we see before CoP? Or changes of edge on spins?

    The one skater that comes to mind for me would be Elvis Stojko. Despite his spectacular jumps, he would have been crushed in a CoP situation because the spins were weak and basic & transitions were basically non-existent.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8n Mama View Post
    I think this is too hard to say because the skaters now have CoP-friendly programs. How many Bielmann's did we see before CoP? Or changes of edge on spins?
    Yeah, those things were rare and then became common once there was an explicit reward for doing them.

    The one skater that comes to mind for me would be Elvis Stojko. Despite his spectacular jumps, he would have been crushed in a CoP situation because the spins were weak and basic & transitions were basically non-existent.
    Depends how willing he would have been to adapt. Stojko did tend to have fast spins, so at least he could have gotten positive GOEs except wher he needed to hold a camel position. Wasn't built for the flexibility features but given the incentive he could have developed enough other features to get at least level 2 and 3 if not 4.

    Some of his programs had more transitions than others. So again, would he have been willing to push even further in that direction or would he prefer to focus on racking up TES points.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    That's interesting about Midori Ito at the 88 Olympics... Debbie's LP was a disaster... But weren't figures still part of the equation back then? Maybe Midori Ito was so far behind after figures that she couldn't catch up. In that case, it's not so much 6.0. that held her back as figures. And she did win a silver medal in 92 - even with a fall in her LP. Well deserved. Her LP program after the fall was awesome.
    it wasn't all figure. Wasn't she out of the top 5 for the short program alone and fifth for the long program? She should be first in both programs and should medal even with figures factored in.

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