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Thread: CoP or 6.0: Different Podium Finishes?

  1. #31
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    it wasn't all figure. Wasn't she out of the top 5 for the short program alone and fifth for the long program? She should be first in both programs and should medal even with figures factored in.
    Yes, BoP brought that up too. So, there are two things to consider.
    1. One is whether she was too far behind after figures to win gold no matter how well she placed in the SP and LP
    2. Leaving figures aside, whether she was fairly scored/placed in the SP and the LP. And whether she would've had a shot at the bronze or silver if she had been fairly scored in those events.

    I've been meaning to go back and watch her 88 programs again ever since this was brought up....

  2. #32
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    Ito was 4th in the short program, but still out of the top 5 in the combined standings after short program + figures.

    If the short and long programs had been judged exactly as they were but there had been no figures, the Calgary results would have been:
    Manley 3 1
    Witt 1 2
    Ito 4 3
    Thomas 2 4

    If the mindset of the judges had been different, then the rankings in each program might have been different than they actually were.

    And if the rules had been different, the skaters would have prepared differently and planned their programs differently.

  3. #33
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Ito was 4th in the short program, but still out of the top 5 in the combined standings after short program + figures.

    If the short and long programs had been judged exactly as they were but there had been no figures, the Calgary results would have been:
    Manley 3 1
    Witt 1 2
    Ito 4 3
    Thomas 2 4

    If the mindset of the judges had been different, then the rankings in each program might have been different than they actually were.

    And if the rules had been different, the skaters would have prepared differently and planned their programs differently.
    Really?? Manley would have won? Wait, do you mean she would have been first in the LP or overall?

  4. #34
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    Manley was first in the LP. I thought that was common knowledge.

    That's the order of placement for the top four in the short and long programs.
    http://winter-olympic-memories.com/h...5_figure_w.htm

    If only the short and long programs counted and were judged exactly as they actually were, that would have been the combined order of finish for those two phases.

    Once we start imagining what would have happened if the programs had been judged differently or skated differently, then it's all speculation.

  5. #35
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Ito was 4th in the short program, but still out of the top 5 in the combined standings after short program + figures.

    If the short and long programs had been judged exactly as they were but there had been no figures, the Calgary results would have been:
    Manley 3 1
    Witt 1 2
    Ito 4 3
    Thomas 2 4

    If the mindset of the judges had been different, then the rankings in each program might have been different than they actually were.

    And if the rules had been different, the skaters would have prepared differently and planned their programs differently.
    It's a bit strange to put Ito's LP 3rd when she did all triples except for axcel. I wonder if Mao in 2005-6 season did not win had she been judged under 6.0 because despite being a jumping bean her programs were still so girlish compared to Cohen's maturity for example.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    It's a bit strange to put Ito's LP 3rd when she did all triples except for axcel. I wonder if Mao in 2005-6 season did not win had she been judged under 6.0 because despite being a jumping bean her programs were still so girlish compared to Cohen's maturity for example.
    Maybe, but then again, Judges loved Witt. Also back then the scoring was so different from now that it's hard to compare. I think that's like pre-6.0 age because figures was still installed, and probably jumps weren't as important as they are now. Jumps started becoming more of a factor in early nineties where two women were trying the double axels and Kristi even felt pressured to try it herself in order to win. But then after Ito retired and Harding got banned, no women tried it for a long time, and it was back to a focus on artistry that was led by Michelle Kwan. However, CoP brought the technical difficuly back to prominence again and so it kind of goes in cycles.

  7. #37
    End subjectivity,reduce PCS, fix the COP! schiele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Maybe, but then again, Judges loved Witt. Also back then the scoring was so different from now that it's hard to compare. I think that's like pre-6.0 age because figures was still installed, and probably jumps weren't as important as they are now. Jumps started becoming more of a factor in early nineties where two women were trying the double axels and Kristi even felt pressured to try it herself in order to win. But then after Ito retired and Harding got banned, no women tried it for a long time, and it was back to a focus on artistry that was led by Michelle Kwan. However, CoP brought the technical difficuly back to prominence again and so it kind of goes in cycles.
    You mean triple axel? Although tech difficulty is back, we see little of it in ladies though, with so many going back to non-risky jump elements especially given the huge number of URs. Now it's like little tech difficulty and little artistry for most ladies..
    I always wonder if Irina S would've done so well under CoP with the UR scrutiny we have right now? Most of her 3+3s could've been easily downgraded.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Maybe, but then again, Judges loved Witt. Also back then the scoring was so different from now that it's hard to compare. I think that's like pre-6.0 age because figures was still installed, and probably jumps weren't as important as they are now. Jumps started becoming more of a factor in early nineties where two women were trying the double axels and Kristi even felt pressured to try it herself in order to win. But then after Ito retired and Harding got banned, no women tried it for a long time, and it was back to a focus on artistry that was led by Michelle Kwan. However, CoP brought the technical difficuly back to prominence again and so it kind of goes in cycles.
    Reputation, which is still one of the very most important factors in CoP scoring was unfortunately a big factor in 6.0 judging.
    Kati was the defending OC and had won many WCs heading into Calgary.

    Midori finished 10th in the figures. The Gold medal was gone for her after the first phase of the competition.

    She should have placed higher in the SP and LP but her leg wrap hurt her. Her posture, positions and extensions hurt her.
    She did not have the 3A at Calgary. I don't think the judges wanted to have an Olympic champion who had a leg wrap, was not always so graceful, and was totally deficient in compulsary figures.

    I did not care much for Kati's SP - and the Americans complained loudly that she should not have won the SP.
    As to her LP - fans may love it or hate it - but there can be no denying "Carmen" has an iconic place in skating history.


    Will Rachael win the OGM if she skates perfectly in both programs and the other girls all have mistakes?
    I don't think so - because so many other skaters are so clearly superior to Rachael at non-jump elements the judges will decide they need more than jumps in an Olympic champion. Just as it was in '88 it would be the same in 2010.
    Last edited by janetfan; 02-09-2010 at 07:39 AM.

  9. #39
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    I wonder how much her leg wrap mattered. As I look at videos, her leg wrap does not bother me at all, even though I have been picky about Nakano's leg wrap.

    I just read an interview of hers in Japanese (a magazine called "Number"). She says that 1988 Olympics was really enjoyable. Ms. Witt was beautiful whereas she was short and not pretty. So she just wanted to do her best to the fullest and was very happy to get the standing ovation. As a result, she placed fifth. Ms. Witt won with two triples.

    But then the cohort changed next season and she won the world champs, landing 3A. Then in 90's figures were abandoned, which was lucky for her.

    In 92, she went to the Olympics as a favorite. (still under the 6.0 system). ..... She herself also grew performance-wise; she could dance tango well instead of turning it into Dango (i.e., "dumplings" in Japanese).
    Last edited by Bennett; 02-09-2010 at 09:09 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I wonder how much her leg wrap mattered. As I look at videos, her leg wrap does not bother me at all, even though I have been picky about Nakano's leg wrap.

    .
    I am not sure what judges thought about Midori's leg wrap but can't imagine it helped her artistic marks.
    What about Yukari? Is CoP giving her + goe for leg wrapped jumps?

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    I wonder how much her leg wrap mattered. As I look at videos, her leg wrap does not bother me at all, even though I have been picky about Nakano's leg wrap.

    I just read an interview of hers in Japanese (a magazine called "Number"). She says that 1988 Olympics was really enjoyable. Ms. Witt was beautiful whereas she was short and not pretty. So she just wanted to do her best to the fullest and was very happy to get the standing ovation. As a result, she placed fifth. Ms. Witt won with two triples.

    But then the cohort changes next season and she won the world champs, landed 3A. And then in 90's figures are abandoned, which was lucky for her.

    In 92, she went to the Olympics as a favorite. (still under the 6.0 system). ..... She herself also grew performance-wise, she could dance tango well instead of making it into Dango (i.e., "dumpling" in Japanese).
    Interesting. I think Japanese female skaters do tend to get better with age. They seem to have this transition period where they make time some time to mature. While Japan has always been focused on the cuteness in girls, so can't blame them for being girlish well into their 20s. Hopefully, this means we'll see a mature and better Mao in the future. Also Kanako.

  12. #42
    Dreaming and dancing Bennett's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I am not sure what judges thought about Midori's leg wrap but can't imagine it helped her artistic marks.
    What about Yukari? Is CoP giving her + goe for leg wrapped jumps?
    Although Yukari has a number of strengths as a skater, I don't really think that Yukari's jumps can be compared with Midori's both aesthetically and technically.

    The main things people comment on Midori's jumps are the amazing height, distance, power, and flow, and these elements do create beauty in the performance. Midori's leg wrap was not serious enough to distract the audience from these elements. She starts with a leg wrap, but by the time she lands it, it is not wrapped.

    I agree with your point that Midori's 1988 performance did not have much elegance or polish, which perhaps affected her second marks, and that the leg wrap can be perceived as one of the factors that create that impression. But I think that other elements such as roughness in stroking, paucity of stretch and extension, choreos, interpretations etc may have affected more.
    Last edited by Bennett; 02-09-2010 at 09:46 AM.

  13. #43
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Itoi did not "leg wrap" in the same manner as Nakano or other skaters that are generally thought to have poor technique. Interestingly, if you compare, Ito had a figure 4 position in the air (in that if she had pushed down tight her position would be like you see most ladies who are thought to have good air position in the "d" or "h" position). Ito was such a big and powerful jumper, she never had to pull in completely with her lower body and maintained the initial lift off position in her lower body. If you stop a lot of good jumpers just after they leave the ice and are on the acendence of the jump, you'll see a position similar to Ito's. All of her jumps were fully rotated.

    Her figures were poor in comparison to others above her in 1988. No one benefitted more from the removal of figures except perhaps Yamaguchi and Harding. If she had skated later in the order, she may have finished higher in both the SP and LP and would have snuck onto the podium, but ber figures REALLY would have had to be better.

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