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Thread: American judge asking to be more strict with Plush and Jouby at Olys

  1. #76
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    That's more like it..( the sensible quote from Plushenko ) and here's another article ( but same photo ) on the CTV site with Mike Slipchuk of Skate Canada trying to spread oil on the waters. There's also a video interview with Beverly Smith right beside it .

    http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-ska...ng+controversy

    Here's hoping things will be smoothed over by the time of the competition.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 02-11-2010 at 02:31 AM.

  2. #77
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Doris - What about that toe tapper who was caught, got a slap on the wrist and is still judging? and Legournge is back judging isn't she or at least soon to be.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 02-11-2010 at 08:54 AM.

  3. #78
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatemom1122 View Post
    What a nightmare! No matter what you do...figure skating will ALWAYS have scandals. You could change the judging system 1,000 times.......people will always find a way to bend the rules.
    Unfortunately I believe you are right.
    But what nerve from that American judge! Who does he think he is asking for fair and honest marks at the Olympics

    Doesn't he know such remarks will upset the big Euro federations

    And what about tradition? Since when have the Olympic skating competitions ever had fair, unbiased marks.

    This judge is just too radical and should be suspended for asking for fair scoring. :sheesh:
    Last edited by janetfan; 02-11-2010 at 09:53 AM.

  4. #79
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    So, from what I read from Colleen's links:

    1. It is fairly normal for a judge who conducts judging seminars to discuss points of judging in emails with collegues.

    2. If Inman was doing anything, he was criticizing the judging on the Euros panel by pointing out that even Plushy said that he and Brian Joubert have no Transitions because they focus on the jumps, yet they had marks in the mid/high 7s for Transitions which is still a strong mark.

    3. Plushy makes a valid point that the PCs can still be used to play favourites. There's still a lot of subjectivity in "Musicality", "Interpretation" and "Presentation" and, as he points out, even "Transitions".

    4. Inman is asking the judges to judge by the ISU rulebook and judge what they see on the ice, and not to just pick numbers out of the air for that second mark. Is this not a valid point???

    The only reason this is controversial is because the PCS happens to be the strength of the North American guys and not Plushy/Joubert so it can be twisted to appear as if Inman is angling for the North American guys. But I come back to this: the CoP is not new, Transitions is a score clearly defined by the ISU ("Minimal Crosscuts") right on the website for anyone to see. Plushy and Joubert have the same access to it as everyone else. If they knew Transitions was something they'd be scored on and didn't consider it important in the choreography phase of their programs, then their Federations shouldn't be complaining when a judge says, "hey, please don't give guys who admit themseleves that they have no Transitions a good Transitions score at the Olympics. It's not fair to the guys who plan their programs according to ISU standards."

    At the end of the day, I also can't help thinking that we're talking about fractions of a point when we're talking Transitions. Let's say, for argument's sake, Inamn's words rattle the judging panel, and they do the unthinkable and give Plushy (gasp) 6.8 for Transitions compared to an 8 for Patrick Chan. If Plushy does everything he plans to in the LP, that 1.2 isn't going to make any difference at all! He's still going to be miles aheads because of his TES! The skater for whom that mark is important isn't Plushy, it's Joubert and that's why Didier Gailhaguet has jumped on this bandwagon, and that's why it's being published like this in L'Equipe.

    What Gailhaguet either doesn't think about or doesn't care about is: a) this puts extra media attention and pressure on Joubert, imo, making it more difficult for Brian to perform his best (judging controversy isn't going to matter a whit if the guy succombs to the pressure and has a splatfest) b) this kind of deliberate twisting of facts to create controversy hurts the entire sport of figure skating.

    Edited because Janetfan posted while I was editing. Read that after mine posted and LOL.
    Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 02-11-2010 at 10:05 AM.

  5. #80
    End subjectivity,reduce PCS, fix the COP! schiele's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Unfortunately I believe you are right.
    But what nerve from that American judge! Who does he think he is asking for fair and honest marks at the Olympics

    Doesn't he know such remarks will upset the big Euro federations

    And what about tradition? Since when have the Olympic skating competitions ever had fair, unbiased marks.

    This judge is just too radical and should be suspended for asking for fair scoring. :sheesh:
    I don't think the problem here is with the message he's giving and don't see how this is suggested. The problem here is timing. And the naming names (twist it as you like, he named names at the end). There are several other issues with faulty judging like how the rest of the PCS is scored (we have seen so many other examples of excessive PCS scoring), which are not discussed or how there are other top skaters with not much transitions (like Oda) who are not drawn to such scrutiny so shortly before the games or how some of the GOEs are automatically given based on reputation instead of what is really performed that night. But none of this seems to be "taught" so shortly before games..

  6. #81
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    or how there are other top skaters with not much transitions (like Oda) who are not drawn to such scrutiny so shortly before the games
    Well, I think what you're missing is that Inman is responding specifically to Plushenko's comments which addressed only himself and Joubert in name, and specifically Transitions. Not to mention, as has been brought up several times in this thread, Transitions is a mark that should be far less subjective than several of the other PCS scores. Musical Interpretation is subjective; whether a skater does a whole half-rink of crosscuts before he/she enters a jump or not, is not subjective.

  7. #82
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by schiele View Post
    . But none of this seems to be "taught" so shortly before games..
    Do you think it should be taught after the Games? Why is it ever too late to make sure the judges are properly interpreting the rules?

    I would hope there are several meetings in Vancouver with all of the skating judges - as a final review and to see if there can be some consistency.

    Or is it better as Jeremy noted that he can't get the best pcs unless he is doing a quad. What does a quad have to do with things like IN, CH and TR?

    Jenny Kirk brought this up back at NHK and called the judging a joke at that event. Jeremy fans agreed with her and of course Joubert fans disagreed.

    CoP is not close to getting some of this stuff right which is what Plushy was comlaining about.
    Last edited by janetfan; 02-11-2010 at 12:33 PM.

  8. #83
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8n Mama View Post
    Well, I think what you're missing is that Inman is responding specifically to Plushenko's comments which addressed only himself and Joubert in name, and specifically Transitions.
    should judges listen to interviews now and what skaters say to make their point? If we give everyone the benefit of the doubt, then give it to Plush also about what he said or meant, cause from all the press conference articles, just one picked this comment. Shouldn't he search a little more of the sources??? In any case shouldn't judges do their seminars or job regardless of what a skater says or believes?
    If this really happened I m just against it , cause it happened a week before Olympics talking about skaters who are competing there. Judges can be reminded to do their job all year long, not in the aftermath of Euros or before Olympics. Put a memo in their fridge earlier on in the season.
    I think it is too much drama this article and i doubt all this is true, I think judge and skaters were a victim of yellow equipe article, and we will never know what happened. I put it in my pre Olympic fever collection.

  9. #84
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The question of transitions in the PC scores have already been dealt with on the Individual elements in the GoEs of the Tech Score. Just where do they belong?

    Many men totally forget the music tempo when they circle around the ice with crossovers to execute a big jump. It's much easier to execute tough jumps with simple crossovers before a jump than to worry about a score with complex moves. Has anyone ever seen negative scores for Transitions? But you will see negative scores for badly executed jumps. No? It's a sport of points, and a mishap of a quad can get deductions whereas the absence of transitions will hardly be noticed.

    If all what said about Inman is true, then he as judge wants some sort of musical transition into all elements. (what a concept. :sheesh Then the alternative is to disregard transitions and do the long paused entry into big jumps.

    I would add, dump the music and let them just have the jumps scored

  10. #85
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Actually, in my opinion, there is a more fundamental question about "Transitions" than just, "how many did you do?" To me, a "transitional" turn or step just so you can say you did one does not deserve any special praise (sort of like catching your foot just so you can say, look, I caught my foot). When such embellishments do not add anything to the choreography or interpretation, then eh? so what?

    If Plushenko's point is that we don't care whether the skater twitches his butt back and forth while setting up for a quad, I completely agree. Michelle Kwan's post-2002 programs were criticized for being without irrelevant ornamentation, but I liked them. She was a clean, mean skatin' machine!
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-11-2010 at 01:31 PM.

  11. #86
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Here is more about Plushy, Russian Federation and judges,,,,,,,

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/colum...o-videos_N.htm

  12. #87
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    Saw this during the morning. Brennan can be a pain at times, she is right on here.

    I also agree that Joubert is far more at risk of lost points from accurate judging than Plushenko b/c he is far less consistent. As for getting rid of PCS, you might as well kill the sport altogether since it is at least partly an artistic endeavor.

  13. #88
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Plush must be the search of the google these days. His name is popping under every stone. Funny...


    He was talking about transitions + jumps and since it was about his marks were Joub got higher, it is in sp, so i guess it was about the 3 jumps in sp, i dont know if he means the entry transitions or the exit of the jump ones.
    But if he thought he doesnt need any, he wouldnt answer what i post in previous page.
    To be realistic though, i m not sure what he has added from euros in vancouver time. He seemed to know what he was missing and changed it but if he actually does it, I will be pleasantly surprised.
    Last edited by seniorita; 02-11-2010 at 03:11 PM.

  14. #89
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Here is another article about using Plushy in ISU training videos.
    An ISU official says Plushy was edited out and replaced because of his comeback. The Russian federation was consulted but Cinquanta made it clear he did not want a training tape critical of Plushy's IN and TR being distributed to judges for training purposes.

    I agree and it would be unfair to have any competing skater used this way.

    http://wintergames.ap.org/story.aspx...f09f70e50c5788

  15. #90
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Well, thanks to Brennan , even we of the great unwashed now know what the teaching videos are about , and can look back for ourselves to see how or if Plushy's performance exemplified the point they're making.

    So can any of the judges who are taking these seminars , knowing that he was originally used.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 02-11-2010 at 05:43 PM. Reason: deletion janet's post above cleared something up

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