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Thread: Helping the casual viewer learn COP for Olympics

  1. #16
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    Re TV commentary: Since the Olympic contract went to CTV instead of the CBC, I doubt you'll get any commentary by Kurt Browning .I've obviously been looking in all the wrong places to find out who will be commentating for CTV..all I know so far is that Elizabeth Manly will be providing some..she can't be alone , though.

  2. #17
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    Oh, you're right Colleen (*groan*) I really like Kurt and Tracy best. It's not going to be Paul Martini is it???

    the difference between a salchow and loop, is if the skater is right the take off of the loop is with the right leg, the salchow the take off is with the left leg.
    Actually, the salchow is a backward inside edge and the loop is the backward outside edge. You can't go by take-off foot because some skaters jump counter-clockwise and some clockwise. Most of the time (but not always) the salchow has a turn in front of it whereas most of the time, the skater sets up for the loop backwards on two feet and then takes off (but again, not always as some skaters do a series of turns into their loop for extra marks).

    To the OP, I wouldn't worry too much about the CoP. You probably know enough to tell your boyfriend why you like certain skaters better than others
    Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 02-08-2010 at 01:23 PM.

  3. #18
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    Re TV commentary: Since the Olympic contract went to CTV instead of the CBC, I doubt you'll get any commentary by Kurt Browning .I've obviously been looking in all the wrong places to find out who will be commentating for CTV..all I know so far is that Elizabeth Manly will be providing some..she can't be alone , though.
    There is a lot of people doing commentary for CTV/TSN/RDS...

    Eglish
    Rod Black - Play-by-Play Announcer
    Jamie Salé and David Pelletier - Analysts, Pairs (with Pelletier also doing Men's)
    Elizabeth Manley - Analyst, Ladies and Dance
    Jennifer Robinson - Analyst, Ladies and Dance
    Sara Orlesky - Reporter

    French

    Michel Lacroix - Play-by-Play Announcer
    Alain Goldberg - Analyst
    Marie-France Dubreuil and Patrice Lauzon - Special Guest Analysts

  4. #19
    Custom Title chapis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8n Mama View Post
    Oh, you're right Colleen (*groan*) I really like Kurt and Tracy best. It's not going to be Paul Martini is it???



    Actually, the salchow is a backward inside edge and the loop is the backward outside edge. You can't go by take-off foot because some skaters jump counter-clockwise and some clockwise. Most of the time (but not always) the salchow has a turn in front of it whereas most of the time, the skater sets up for the loop backwards on two feet and then takes off (but again, not always as some skaters do a series of turns into their loop for extra marks).

    To the OP, I wouldn't worry too much about the CoP. You probably know enough to tell your boyfriend why you like certain skaters better than others
    Thank you, I didnt know that, I thought the main difference was the foot of the take off

  5. #20
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    The descriptions here a really good, especially the foot being in front of the takeoff foot for the Loop and out to the side for the Salchow. Another thing to look for with the Salchow and Loop is the Loop takes off and lands on the same foot, the Salchow takes of on one foot and lands on the opposite foot.

  6. #21
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    O-o-o-oh, ilovetoskate... you've confirmed my worst nightmare...Rod Black Lives ! The Pratt of Purple Prose returns from the void...he who saddled many an unsuspecting skater with the dread Next One Curse...if they let him turn the Olympics into an Elvis-fest..No, no, no-o-o!

    But now that you mention it,I do remember hearing months ago that Jamie & David would be involved.I just forgot. David can be very insightful.
    I always like it better when an actual ice dancer covers dance (Victor Kratz ,Wing & Lowe are right here in Vancouver)...but, we'll see.

  7. #22
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    O-o-o-oh, ilovetoskate... you've confirmed my worst nightmare...Rod Black Lives ! The Pratt of Purple Prose returns from the void...he who saddled many an unsuspecting skater with the dread Next One Curse...if they let him turn the Olympics into an Elvis-fest..No, no, no-o-o!

    But now that you mention it,I do remember hearing months ago that Jamie & David would be involved.I just forgot. David can be very insightful.
    I always like it better when an actual ice dancer covers dance (Victor Kratz ,Wing & Lowe are right here in Vancouver)...but, we'll see.
    I always enjoyed Rod Black so hopefully he is okay. I like all of the commentators though - Jennifer Robinson is really great, well spoken, and insightful so I hope she can make it to Vancouver - since she just had a baby! Overall, I think it will be good commentary!

  8. #23
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    Thanks for your help everyone! There are so many nice websites and videos I didn't know existed. I really like the COP, even if it takes a bit longer to learn. The 6.0 system never made any sense to me, like how could scores range from 5.5 to 5.9? What did 5.8 objectively mean? It all seemed like a beauty pageant with jumps.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    "Prerotation" refers to rotation on the ice before takeoff. It's pretty rare that jumps get downgraded for this, although it does happen sometimes, most often with toe loops at the ends of combinations (so-called "toe axel" error).

    Most downgrades are because of rotation on the ice on the landing. This is called "underrotation" or "cheating the jump."
    Oooh, so that's what it means when a jump is cheated. I feel like downgrades are a big deal for the ladies, so I'll be sure to look for underrotation on the ice after landing a jump. I'm really glad the new system focuses so much on fully rotating triples during the slow motion replay. Back in the 6.0 era, I had thought a smart athlete would only rotate 2.5 times, enough so that it was obviously not a double, and save her energy because no really cared about a full triple. Making a big deal out of rotation makes figure skating seem more like a sport.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8n Mama View Post
    There's also a maximum number of "jumping passes" in the programs. If the jumpers do more jumps than are allowed, they don't count. There's also a maximum of any one kind of jump to keep skaters from doing semething like including 4 quad toes to rack up the points.
    I remember a scene during the movie Ice Princess, in which the main character in the free program “added in a triple lutz” and went from fourth to silver. This was still under the 6.0 system, so perhaps they were less stringent about that sort of thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinymavy15 View Post
    If you And your boyfriend know how Michelle Kwan skated, you know what good skating skills look like. Watch a few videos of how she moves across the ice and comapre that with a video of Caroline Zhang.
    I've really like Janet Lynn, John Curry, and Michelle Kwan skating. There's a freedom and lightness, but it's more intuitive, you know? I'd never be able to base my statement on lean or big curves on the ice. All I can tell is that Caroline Zhang skates like there are invisible bowling balls chained to her ankles. My boyfriend likes Caroline better because she is very bendy and her spins and spirals have better extension than Michelle's. I used to like her more than Michelle too, but lately she's been very sullen when she skates. Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    A layman's way of telling the loop and Salchow apart is that with the loop entry, the legs have to be close together to vault oneself into the air (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ior_Worlds.jpg) and with the Salchow entry, the legs are separated (http://www.iceskate.net/skate%20images/salchow_demo.jpg).
    That's a useful way to tell the difference between a salchow and a lutz. Thanks!

  9. #24
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    The 6.0 system was a comparative system in that you compare skaters to one another and assign a score to it, the number didn't mean anything specific, just the placement.

    It's really difficult to under rotate a jump on purpose and not fall, two foot, or flip out. It's in youir best interest (even under 6.0) to rotate it completely to avoid one of the big three energy wasters. 1/4-3/8 under rotation is more common.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    The 6.0 system was a comparative system in that you compare skaters to one another and assign a score to it, the number didn't mean anything specific, just the placement.

    It's really difficult to under rotate a jump on purpose and not fall, two foot, or flip out. It's in youir best interest (even under 6.0) to rotate it completely to avoid one of the big three energy wasters. 1/4-3/8 under rotation is more common.
    ITA with regard to triple jumps the momentum is large enough that most skaters would fall. However I have see skaters actually land facing forward and complete the rotation on ice typically on their toe pick. Perhaps more common with doubles but not unheard of with triples.

  11. #26
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    That's typical in the learning phase, but consistently landing it under rotated without one of the three energy wasters is HARD

  12. #27
    Rinkside
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    Question

    I wonder if there is a limit of how many triple jumps skaters can do. For example, are ladies allowed to do more than 7 triples?

    What are the so called "three energy wasters"? And how can a skater jump without wasting much energy?

  13. #28
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ugnele View Post
    I wonder if there is a limit of how many triple jumps skaters can do. For example, are ladies allowed to do more than 7 triples?

    What are the so called "three energy wasters"? And how can a skater jump without wasting much energy?
    If a skater cna do a 3A and isn't missing another triple, then the max # of triples a skater can do in a program is 8 if she has a ratifiable 3+3 combination as well. I suspect this is what Midori Ito would have done in 92 if she hadn't fallen on the first 3A.

    The 3 energy wasters that I refer to are: the fall, the 2 foot, and the flip out. As a skater these take extra energy to overcome. Getting up from a fall, especially a hard one, is difficult as is recovering from a flip out (to avoid a fall) and not falling on an obvious 2 foot. They also take away mental energy (the "oh crap" factor) from a skater when they happen.

  14. #29
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    Thanks for your help everyone! There are so many nice websites and videos I didn't know existed. I really like the COP, even if it takes a bit longer to learn. The 6.0 system never made any sense to me, like how could scores range from 5.5 to 5.9? What did 5.8 objectively mean? It all seemed like a beauty pageant with jumps.



    Oooh, so that's what it means when a jump is cheated. I feel like downgrades are a big deal for the ladies, so I'll be sure to look for underrotation on the ice after landing a jump. I'm really glad the new system focuses so much on fully rotating triples during the slow motion replay. Back in the 6.0 era, I had thought a smart athlete would only rotate 2.5 times, enough so that it was obviously not a double, and save her energy because no really cared about a full triple. Making a big deal out of rotation makes figure skating seem more like a sport.
    Prerotations are anotherform of cheating jumps by definition. It doesn't matter when the blade leaves the ice as long as the blade lands after the requisite rotations are completed. Watch carefully especially during a combo jump for the second and third jumps do not skim along the ice in a rotating mode before take off. The combo could be 3x2.1 or 3x2.5x1.4 . The crowd will roar anyway and why not, it;s part of the old presentation and why not?

    I remember a scene during the movie Ice Princess, in which the main character in the free program “added in a triple lutz” and went from fourth to silver. This was still under the 6.0 system, so perhaps they were less stringent about that sort of thing
    It happened to Sarah Hughes in SLC Olys who was 4th in the SP and 1st in the LP.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 02-09-2010 at 04:55 PM. Reason: Typos and this system is tiring.

  15. #30
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    You're allowed to repeat 2 different triples, with a maximum of 2 of the same kind of triple.

    So however many different kinds of triples you're capable of, that number plus 2 is the maximum number of triples you're allowed to perform.

    There are 6 different kinds of jumps that can be performed as triples: toe loop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel.

    If you can do all 6 of those kinds of triples, the maximum number of triples you could legally perform in a long program is 8.

    If you can only do 5 different kinds, the maximum is 7.

    If you can only do 2 kinds, the maximum is 4.

    That holds true for both men and women. Men are more likely to be capable of performing all 6 different kinds.

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