Helping the casual viewer learn COP for Olympics

O-o-o-oh, ilovetoskate... you've confirmed my worst nightmare...Rod Black Lives ! The Pratt of Purple Prose returns from the void...he who saddled many an unsuspecting skater with the dread Next One Curse...if they let him turn the Olympics into an Elvis-fest..No, no, no-o-o!

But now that you mention it,I do remember hearing months ago that Jamie & David would be involved.I just forgot. David can be very insightful.
I always like it better when an actual ice dancer covers dance (Victor Kratz ,Wing & Lowe are right here in Vancouver)...but, we'll see.

colleen o'neill said:

O-o-o-oh, ilovetoskate... you've confirmed my worst nightmare...Rod Black Lives ! The Pratt of Purple Prose returns from the void...he who saddled many an unsuspecting skater with the dread Next One Curse...if they let him turn the Olympics into an Elvis-fest..No, no, no-o-o!

But now that you mention it,I do remember hearing months ago that Jamie & David would be involved.I just forgot. David can be very insightful.
I always like it better when an actual ice dancer covers dance (Victor Kratz ,Wing & Lowe are right here in Vancouver)...but, we'll see.

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I always enjoyed Rod Black so hopefully he is okay. I like all of the commentators though - Jennifer Robinson is really great, well spoken, and insightful so I hope she can make it to Vancouver - since she just had a baby! Overall, I think it will be good commentary!

Thanks for your help everyone! There are so many nice websites and videos I didn't know existed. I really like the COP, even if it takes a bit longer to learn. The 6.0 system never made any sense to me, like how could scores range from 5.5 to 5.9? What did 5.8 objectively mean? It all seemed like a beauty pageant with jumps.

gkelly said:

"Prerotation" refers to rotation on the ice before takeoff. It's pretty rare that jumps get downgraded for this, although it does happen sometimes, most often with toe loops at the ends of combinations (so-called "toe axel" error).

Most downgrades are because of rotation on the ice on the landing. This is called "underrotation" or "cheating the jump."

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Oooh, so that's what it means when a jump is cheated. I feel like downgrades are a big deal for the ladies, so I'll be sure to look for underrotation on the ice after landing a jump. I'm really glad the new system focuses so much on fully rotating triples during the slow motion replay. Back in the 6.0 era, I had thought a smart athlete would only rotate 2.5 times, enough so that it was obviously not a double, and save her energy because no really cared about a full triple. Making a big deal out of rotation makes figure skating seem more like a sport.

Sk8n Mama said:

There's also a maximum number of "jumping passes" in the programs. If the jumpers do more jumps than are allowed, they don't count. There's also a maximum of any one kind of jump to keep skaters from doing semething like including 4 quad toes to rack up the points.

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I remember a scene during the movie Ice Princess, in which the main character in the free program “added in a triple lutz” and went from fourth to silver. This was still under the 6.0 system, so perhaps they were less stringent about that sort of thing.

Tinymavy15 said:

If you And your boyfriend know how Michelle Kwan skated, you know what good skating skills look like. Watch a few videos of how she moves across the ice and comapre that with a video of Caroline Zhang.

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I've really like Janet Lynn, John Curry, and Michelle Kwan skating. There's a freedom and lightness, but it's more intuitive, you know? I'd never be able to base my statement on lean or big curves on the ice. :think: All I can tell is that Caroline Zhang skates like there are invisible bowling balls chained to her ankles. My boyfriend likes Caroline better because she is very bendy and her spins and spirals have better extension than Michelle's. I used to like her more than Michelle too, but lately she's been very sullen when she skates. Oh well.

museksk8r said:

A layman's way of telling the loop and Salchow apart is that with the loop entry, the legs have to be close together to vault oneself into the air (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped..._&_Simon_Shnapir_2LoTh_2009_Junior_Worlds.jpg) and with the Salchow entry, the legs are separated (http://www.iceskate.net/skate images/salchow_demo.jpg).

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That's a useful way to tell the difference between a salchow and a lutz. Thanks!

The 6.0 system was a comparative system in that you compare skaters to one another and assign a score to it, the number didn't mean anything specific, just the placement.

It's really difficult to under rotate a jump on purpose and not fall, two foot, or flip out. It's in youir best interest (even under 6.0) to rotate it completely to avoid one of the big three energy wasters. 1/4-3/8 under rotation is more common.

mskater93 said:

The 6.0 system was a comparative system in that you compare skaters to one another and assign a score to it, the number didn't mean anything specific, just the placement.

It's really difficult to under rotate a jump on purpose and not fall, two foot, or flip out. It's in youir best interest (even under 6.0) to rotate it completely to avoid one of the big three energy wasters. 1/4-3/8 under rotation is more common.

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ITA with regard to triple jumps the momentum is large enough that most skaters would fall. However I have see skaters actually land facing forward and complete the rotation on ice typically on their toe pick. Perhaps more common with doubles but not unheard of with triples.

That's typical in the learning phase, but consistently landing it under rotated without one of the three energy wasters is HARD

I wonder if there is a limit of how many triple jumps skaters can do. For example, are ladies allowed to do more than 7 triples?

What are the so called "three energy wasters"? And how can a skater jump without wasting much energy?

Ugnele said:

I wonder if there is a limit of how many triple jumps skaters can do. For example, are ladies allowed to do more than 7 triples?

What are the so called "three energy wasters"? And how can a skater jump without wasting much energy?

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If a skater cna do a 3A and isn't missing another triple, then the max # of triples a skater can do in a program is 8 if she has a ratifiable 3+3 combination as well. I suspect this is what Midori Ito would have done in 92 if she hadn't fallen on the first 3A.

The 3 energy wasters that I refer to are: the fall, the 2 foot, and the flip out. As a skater these take extra energy to overcome. Getting up from a fall, especially a hard one, is difficult as is recovering from a flip out (to avoid a fall) and not falling on an obvious 2 foot. They also take away mental energy (the "oh crap" factor) from a skater when they happen.

brightphoton said:

Thanks for your help everyone! There are so many nice websites and videos I didn't know existed. I really like the COP, even if it takes a bit longer to learn. The 6.0 system never made any sense to me, like how could scores range from 5.5 to 5.9? What did 5.8 objectively mean? It all seemed like a beauty pageant with jumps.



Oooh, so that's what it means when a jump is cheated. I feel like downgrades are a big deal for the ladies, so I'll be sure to look for underrotation on the ice after landing a jump. I'm really glad the new system focuses so much on fully rotating triples during the slow motion replay. Back in the 6.0 era, I had thought a smart athlete would only rotate 2.5 times, enough so that it was obviously not a double, and save her energy because no really cared about a full triple. Making a big deal out of rotation makes figure skating seem more like a sport.

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Prerotations are anotherform of cheating jumps by definition. It doesn't matter when the blade leaves the ice as long as the blade lands after the requisite rotations are completed. Watch carefully especially during a combo jump for the second and third jumps do not skim along the ice in a rotating mode before take off. The combo could be 3x2.1 or 3x2.5x1.4 . The crowd will roar anyway and why not, it;s part of the old presentation and why not?

I remember a scene during the movie Ice Princess, in which the main character in the free program “added in a triple lutz” and went from fourth to silver. This was still under the 6.0 system, so perhaps they were less stringent about that sort of thing

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It happened to Sarah Hughes in SLC Olys who was 4th in the SP and 1st in the LP.

You're allowed to repeat 2 different triples, with a maximum of 2 of the same kind of triple.

So however many different kinds of triples you're capable of, that number plus 2 is the maximum number of triples you're allowed to perform.

There are 6 different kinds of jumps that can be performed as triples: toe loop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz, axel.

If you can do all 6 of those kinds of triples, the maximum number of triples you could legally perform in a long program is 8.

If you can only do 5 different kinds, the maximum is 7.

If you can only do 2 kinds, the maximum is 4.

That holds true for both men and women. Men are more likely to be capable of performing all 6 different kinds.