Patrick Chan Article "Disses" Plushenko | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Patrick Chan Article "Disses" Plushenko

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Is E.M Swift working for Joe Inman? That was a very one-sided take on the situation. Just because Plushenko made a comment doesn't mean Inman has to use it as a so-called teaching tool right before the Olympics, and certainly there's no reason to drag Joubert into it. Plushenko also said recently that Evan Lysacek doesn't really have a 3A, maybe Inman would like to remind judges to mark him down?

I agree that Didier Gailhaguet isn't the most savory character in skating, but it's ridiculous to suggest that Inman's actions are just an "above-board, innocuous e-mail" and that nobody should have gotten upset. What's so above-board of lobbying behind the scenes and then blaming others when the story breaks in the media? Inman, like many others, is lobbying and trying to sway judges, and for Swift to suggest that only those corrupt Euros politik shows either ignorance or plain hypocrisy.

BTW, props to both Brian Joubert ("we all have strengths and weaknesses", "I have worked on my transitions but can still improve") and Evan Lysacek ("I think the judging has been pretty accurate the last few seasons") for refusing to get involved in this mess.

B, I agree with you. If Inman is so honest and integrit, how come didn't he address Lysacek's ridiculous PCS at GPF or his those being overlooked 3As?! I like your logical, detailed thinking and writing.

Some people's biased view on things really take a tow sometimes.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
B, I agree with you. If Inman is so honest and integrit, how come didn't he address Lysacek's ridiculous PCS at GPF or his those being overlooked 3As?!

I think everyone is making too much of this email by Inman. The French sports newspaper tried to make a mountain out of a mole hill and managed to coax a few quotes out of Gailhaguet to sell papers. As to whether Inman should send another email to complain about Lysacek's triple Axel, well, you can't solve all the world's problems in one email.

Inman was reacting to Plushenko's reported statement that he and Joubert did not do any transitions, so why was Joubert scored higher? Inman basically said, see, that's what I have been saying all along -- we are not scoring transitions correctly.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:)Why didn't Inman mention this that or the other ?..How do we know he didn't ? One email was leaked after one competition and an apros pos quote from one of the skaters...and Inman never suggested that any one skater should be placed in any particular position at any particular event... he only said that judges should mark what they see , no matter the skater , no matter the event. It's what we all should be hoping for.
 
Last edited:

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
Point taken, but you know what, if it had been a highly regarded Russian judge sending an email a couple of weeks prior to the Olympics, reminding judges that axels should not take off backwards and have we all seen Lysacek's axel technique recently, the english speaking boards would go into meltdown accusing those pesky russians of fixing the results. There would be no "this is just one email" he's not judging at the Olympisc so it doesn't matter" type arguments it would be all out war. When non NA judges start the lobbying it's fixed, they're trying to screw with the results of a competition, when NA judges do it, it's integrity and trying to save our sport :rolleye:
 

Alatariel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Point taken, but you know what, if it had been a highly regarded Russian judge sending an email a couple of weeks prior to the Olympics, reminding judges that axels should not take off backwards and have we all seen Lysacek's axel technique recently, the english speaking boards would go into meltdown accusing those pesky russians of fixing the results. There would be no "this is just one email" he's not judging at the Olympisc so it doesn't matter" type arguments it would be all out war. When non NA judges start the lobbying it's fixed, they're trying to screw with the results of a competition, when NA judges do it, it's integrity and trying to save our sport :rolleye:

ITA!

It just irks me that so many people are taking this 'moral' road and going on with the just teaching theory and you are all making something out of nothing pious preaching when we all know if the scenario was reversed precisely what you said would have happened. No way would they ever have accepted the teaching scenario then.

Hypocrites.
 

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
I think everyone is making too much of this email by Inman. The French sports newspaper tried to make a mountain out of a mole hill and managed to coax a few quotes out of Gailhaguet to sell papers. As to whether Inman should send another email to complain about Lysacek's triple Axel, well, you can't solve all the world's problems in one email.

Inman was reacting to Plushenko's reported statement that he and Joubert did not do any transitions, so why was Joubert scored higher? Inman basically said, see, that's what I have been saying all along -- we are not scoring transitions correctly.

Point taken, but you know what, if it had been a highly regarded Russian judge sending an email a couple of weeks prior to the Olympics, reminding judges that axels should not take off backwards and have we all seen Lysacek's axel technique recently, the english speaking boards would go into meltdown accusing those pesky russians of fixing the results. There would be no "this is just one email" he's not judging at the Olympisc so it doesn't matter" type arguments it would be all out war. When non NA judges start the lobbying it's fixed, they're trying to screw with the results of a competition, when NA judges do it, it's integrity and trying to save our sport :rolleye:

For once, I totally agree with Ant!:agree: This is a perfect answer to MM.

Lysacek's super inflated PCS has been going on for a long while. As a "PCS expert", Inman has never addressed it so publicly, such as sending e-mails to 60+ judges worldwide, and let the integrity of the PCS scoring be damaged. There is no excuse for that. Sending e-mail to 60 judges worldwide is an extreme meassure, especially a couple of weeks before the Olympics starts. How convenient that was for Inman!:cool: It's like without Plushenko's vision, he and all the expertised judges would never know what was going on in TR and in PCS!:rolleye:

You want to clear up the PCS judging? Fine, let's put everything on the table and address Lysacek's PCS as well. That would show Inman's honest and integrity.

(I apologize to go off topic. But it was Janetfan who has brought Plushenko's comment into Patrick Chan's thread.;))
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Point taken, but you know what, if it had been a highly regarded Russian judge sending an email a couple of weeks prior to the Olympics, reminding judges that axels should not take off backwards and have we all seen Lysacek's axel technique recently, the english speaking boards would go into meltdown accusing those pesky russians of fixing the results. There would be no "this is just one email" he's not judging at the Olympisc so it doesn't matter" type arguments it would be all out war. When non NA judges start the lobbying it's fixed, they're trying to screw with the results of a competition, when NA judges do it, it's integrity and trying to save our sport :rolleye:

Do you have to use a hypothetical situation?
Are N. Americans guilty in your imaginary, hypothetical world of behaving exactly like our Euro friends?

Perhaps you are right and in the skating world there has been little reason for mutual trust to exist.

And thus, in Euro eyes a N. American judge who has asked for more honest scoring is seen to be nothing more than a cheater.
How sad that so many of us see the skating world this way.

I just read an old L'equipe article about the SLC scandal. Their opinion was that the accused French officials were scapegoats.
It was stated that the charges would not stand and that both French officials announced plans to protest the decision to ban them.

Of course we know this never happened and the two French officials did not launch a protest and accepted their punishment for their role in the SLC scandal.

The timing of Inman's email has been criticized as much or even more than it's content.
Many are crying, "why did he do this a few weeks before the Olympics?"

Unfortunately he sent his email in reaction to Plushenko's comments which were given after the European championships. We all know the Euro championships take place a few weeks before the Olympics. I don't see how timing is the big issue here since Plushy made his remarks - a few weeks before the Olympics.

Without knowing the exact information about Inman's email it seems hard to make a clear determination about this.

But given his role as an ISU judge and trainer his actions do not seem inappropriate. Reading the content of his email his words do not seem to be promoting cheating - in fact his message seems to be about fair scoring.

I would think ISU has looked into this and if they find Inman acted in an unprofessional or underhanded manner he will be disciplined. The biggest problem I see with all of this is that some think it might have an effect on the way Plushy or Joubert are scored in Vancouver. They seem to fear they might be scored more fairly

I don't think any such thing will happen. If Plushy and Joubert land their jumps the judges will also find they are also very musical with superior choreo and top level TR's.

Would this be a fair and accurate appraisal of their skating?
That seems to be a question worth thinking about.
I believe that is what Inman was thinking about and yet many see his actions as an attempt to manipulate the scoring.

Perhaps this is just another one of those pesky cultural differences.
 

antmanb

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 5, 2004
To be completely honest I actually agree with what Inman wrote and I agree that the PCS should be used in a much better way. Yes he did quote something Plush himself said, but i'd had thought better of it given that Plush was making derogatory remarks about a fellow skater not just himself.

In the end - I think great try to get the judges to do their job better, better do it in the off season so that the judging in one entire season can be as consistent as you can get it, don't confuse judges mid season by saying actually this isn't working quite right. Issue a formal communication emphasising what the rules say and reminding judges to take it into account (isn't that what happened with "e" and "!" afterall?).

But the most important thing is DO NOT USE CURRENTLY COMPETNIG SKATERS AS EXAMPLES OF WHAT NOT TO DO. Use skaters of old and point out these things (as i understand Baiul's Olympic LP became an instructional tool to show how standing and posing is not good choregoraphy) but don't take two Olympic Gold Medal favourites, two weeks before the Olympics and put them under scrutiny for lacking certain charactersitics in their skating in an email to 60 judges. It just looks underhanded if the judge is form a country with another gold medal favourite and his biggest rivals are having their flaws pointed out.

Ant
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
To be completely honest I actually agree with what Inman wrote and I agree that the PCS should be used in a much better way. Yes he did quote something Plush himself said, but i'd had thought better of it given that Plush was making derogatory remarks about a fellow skater not just himself.

In the end - I think great try to get the judges to do their job better, better do it in the off season so that the judging in one entire season can be as consistent as you can get it, don't confuse judges mid season by saying actually this isn't working quite right. Issue a formal communication emphasising what the rules say and reminding judges to take it into account (isn't that what happened with "e" and "!" afterall?).

But the most important thing is DO NOT USE CURRENTLY COMPETNIG SKATERS AS EXAMPLES OF WHAT NOT TO DO. Use skaters of old and point out these things (as i understand Baiul's Olympic LP became an instructional tool to show how standing and posing is not good choregoraphy) but don't take two Olympic Gold Medal favourites, two weeks before the Olympics and put them under scrutiny for lacking certain charactersitics in their skating in an email to 60 judges. It just looks underhanded if the judge is form a country with another gold medal favourite and his biggest rivals are having their flaws pointed out.

Ant

I agree with most of what you said. As far as we know ISU does address these type of questions through formal seminars and certainly "official" approved communications to all judges are the best way to handle questions about interpretation of the rules.

In light of Inman's private email being made public I wonder about what else is going on behind the scenes. If Inman's email is the worst thing that has happened I think we all can feel a degree of relief. Perhaps as we are writing about this various Federation heads are instructing their respective judges to be as fair as possible.

Last night was fun and tonight should be very exciting too.
Let's hope the best performances - and not the biggest reputations - are the primary criteria for how the skaters will be marked.
 

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Do you have to use a hypothetical situation?
Are N. Americans guilty in your imaginary, hypothetical world of behaving exactly like our Euro friends?

Perhaps you are right and in the skating world there has been little reason for mutual trust to exist.

And thus, in Euro eyes a N. American judge who has asked for more honest scoring is seen to be nothing more than a cheater.
How sad that so many of us see the skating world this way.

I just read an old L'equipe article about the SLC scandal. Their opinion was that the accused French officials were scapegoats.
It was stated that the charges would not stand and that both French officials announced plans to protest the decision to ban them.

Of course we know this never happened and the two French officials did not launch a protest and accepted their punishment for their role in the SLC scandal.

The timing of Inman's email has been criticized as much or even more than it's content.
Many are crying, "why did he do this a few weeks before the Olympics?"

Unfortunately he sent his email in reaction to Plushenko's comments which were given after the European championships. We all know the Euro championships take place a few weeks before the Olympics. I don't see how timing is the big issue here since Plushy made his remarks - a few weeks before the Olympics.

Without knowing the exact information about Inman's email it seems hard to make a clear determination about this.

But given his role as an ISU judge and trainer his actions do not seem inappropriate. Reading the content of his email his words do not seem to be promoting cheating - in fact his message seems to be about fair scoring.

I would think ISU has looked into this and if they find Inman acted in an unprofessional or underhanded manner he will be disciplined. The biggest problem I see with all of this is that some think it might have an effect on the way Plushy or Joubert are scored in Vancouver. They seem to fear they might be scored more fairly

I don't think any such thing will happen. If Plushy and Joubert land their jumps the judges will also find they are also very musical with superior choreo and top level TR's.

Would this be a fair and accurate appraisal of their skating?
That seems to be a question worth thinking about.
I believe that is what Inman was thinking about and yet many see his actions as an attempt to manipulate the scoring.

Perhaps this is just another one of those pesky cultural differences.

Janetfan, no one will forget that not long ago, you were probably the most enthusiastic defender for Lysacek's outrageous PCS. Now you have become the most enthusiastic defender for the integrity of TR judging and Mr. Inman's honesty. Does this explain for anything to you?;)

Plushenko, as honest as he is, has admited it. Mr. Inman has used this opportunity conveniently to launch this so called "teaching" as if he and the fellow experts have never realized what was going on all these years until this moment.;) How funny it is!:rolleye:
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Janetfan, no one will forget that not long ago, you were probably the most enthusiastic defender for Lysacek's outragous PCS. Now you have become the most enthusiastic defender for the integrity of TR judging and Mr. Inman's honesty. Does this explain for anything to you?;)

Plushenko, as honest as he is, has admited it. Mr. Inman has used this opportunity conveniently to launch this so called "teaching" as if he and the fellow experts have never realized that was going on all these years until this moment.;) How funny it is!:rolleye:

The case of Evan is interesting to me. He is not my favorite but it is true I have defended him just as I defended Sasha many times. Sometimes the nature of posts gets personal against skaters and that is when I tend to defend them at times.

Evan does have transitions in his programs. Maybe you haven't noticed them but it is a reason why he scores higher than Johnny at times. Not just TR but in general Evan's programs are more CoP friendly than some of the other skaters.

The most honest thing I can tell you is that I see most attacks against Evan as an attack against his style.
For instance - I do not like CoP step sequences but Evan gets high marks. I don't like them but - they deserve high mnarks according to the CoP. You should argue against the CoP step rules and not always against Evan.

I also don't like Evans IN all of the time but he is doing it. Same with his CH and TR. I think it is ridiculous to attack Evan's pcs so much as he is just playing the CoP game better than many of his competitors.

I will say this - beyond any doubt I believe Evan won the WC last season fair and square. The GPF was closer and I can see how people disputed it. Jeremy, my favorite lost the GPF with a poor SP. Oda made more mistakes than Evan and Johnny's jump content was not as difficult as Evan.

Evan probably deserved to win the GPF. Others can disagree - but why blame Evan if Oda chokes under pressure, Johnny leaves out so many jumps and Jeremy is inconsistent. Brian was injured, Dai messed up bigtime and Plushy and Chan were not there.

Who in your world should have won the WC last season and the GPF this season? I am not saying i am right but I am willing to defend a skater agaist the type of personal abuse you and others throw in his direction. Just as you defend your favorites. This is just a skating board - a place to exchange thoughts and ideas and argue.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Evan probably deserved to win the GPF. Others can disagree - but why blame Evan if Oda chokes under pressure, Johnny leaves out so many jumps and Jeremy is inconsistent. Brian was injured, Dai messed up bigtime and Plushy and Chan were not there.
Evan should have won the GPF. But the rest I read last days are sort of like the same question: Why blame Evgeni or Joubert or whoever for the weakness of their programs that someone would have to pay attention in OLympics before they have even skated tonight???
Adding that Plush might do 10 ina bauers before the quad and he wiould still have no transitions just as has happened with Joubert with his spins. People have decided long time ago they are not good, and they dont look further. Well as a matter of fact they are very good and I have many top gold names that spin less good than Joubert right now.
 
Last edited:

jennylovskt

Medalist
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
To point out Evan's undeserving PCS is NOT personal abuse. To write nasty comments on European skaters are. We have to make that clear.

I don't want to go too far to talk about GPF and WC in Patrick Chan's thread. I have stated all my takes in the according threads already.
 
Last edited:
Top