Patrick Chan Article "Disses" Plushenko

chuckm said:

Please reply with LINKS to the "volleys" fired at other skaters. This was discussed earlier in this thread, and no one has been able to find quotes from Plushenko making fun of other skaters.
Maybe you should try going back and reading the WHOLE thread before charging Plushenko with non-existent behavior.

Chan has no respect for skaters with longer, more impressive resumes than his. What Chan basically is lacking in is good sportsmanship.

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Those are only your OPINIONS chuck. If you wish to declare Chan a bad sport that is your right.

I read the thread and have brought up links in the past with remarks Plushy has made criticizing Evan.

Were you sleeping when Plushy decided to single out Joubert for criticism and accused the judges of cheating?
I guess you missed that. Those "transition" remarks made by Plushy were very calculated, had nothing to do with good sportsmanship and have led to bad feelings before the Games have even started.

Quote from Dan Barnes, CanWest
"But it goes deeper. Plushenko was quoted recently saying “If the judges want someone to place high, they can arrange it. Like in Tallinn, (at Europeans) Brian Joubert got more points for his transitions than me, although we did exactly the same transitions on the ice. In fact, we don’t have any transitions, because we focus on our jumps.”

Maybe you need to read the threads before you tell others what to do. As to Chan, I don't mind his little outburts and find them funny.

janetfan said:

Were you sleeping when Plushy decided to single out Joubert for criticism? I guess you missed that. Those "transition" remarks made by Plushy were very calculated, had nothing to do with good sportsmanship and have led to bad feelings before the Games have even started.

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Glad, someone has finally said it. I thought that would have gone unnoticed.

janetfan said:

But Patrick is criticized and not Plushy's hilarious, ridiculous claims ?
What a big Double Standard.

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I think the difference between Plushenko and Chan's statements are that Plushenko has the track record to back himself up, while Chan is barely a beginner in comparison. Also, there's a deliberate facetiousness in Plushenko. He reminds me of Muhammad Ali--"I am the greatest." And yeah, he was. And currently, Plushenko is. Plushenko is the first to point out his "old" age, him having to wait before he could even walk, the pasta and red wine pounds he's trying to lose. But while Plushenko pushes the athletic boundaries of the sport, Chan is whining about how great his transitions are. Gee, that's great, you did a spiral before you popped out of your axel vs. Imma a gonna slap down two quad combos in your face. Chan has a long ways to go before he can get that Ali swagger.

Janetfan, I think that chuckm has the right to request links to back up your claim of "several volleys at different skaters this season", because that is a pejorative claim that inspires a desire for proof.

As for Patrick Chan, I thought him a very promising skater when he was 16 years of age. Something changed with his aging, and his triple axel became less consistent. I understand that his injury this season may have been decisive in his changing his mind about quads, and led to his emphatic talk about the great importance of transitions. I can sympathize with his plight, but a cop-out is still a cop-out.

This is still a sport. The difference between the biological form of the male pelvic bone and that of the female pelvic bone, has led to certain differences between the general expectations regarding men's and ladies' singles skating. Personally, I expect a male single skater to thrill me with a display of power, endurance, and courage, as well as sufficient competence in all the categories of triples, especially in the most difficult and unique triple, due to its forward take-off, the triple axel, if they want me genuinely to consider them a champion. I am not overly concerned about quads, but to me the triple axel is the sine qua non of men's ISU skating competitions, and no judging system is going to change my feeling about that, now or ever. If anyone should happen to win the Olympic gold in men's figure skating without a triple axel, I shall consider that a sign of the deterioration of the sport.

is there really a danger of that happening? I can't see a world or olympic champion in this day and age not having at least two 3a in a competition... if not three. seems to be the norm for international competition.

schiele said:

I wouldn't go that far but I'd call them excessive transitions. If transition (means) are getting in the way of jumps (end) then obviously it is excessive for that skater. However when bad jumping technique is excused with having difficult transitions, then it makes me think there is something clearly wrong here. And this is not concerning only Chan, of course.

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I agree about the "excessive" transitions, especially when they do not advance the choreography or interpretation.

Joesitz made an interesting point that transitions leading into a jump are already scored in the GOEs for that jump ("Unusual or difficult entry.") On the other hand, most of the moves that are called "transitions" are incorporated into the footwok sequence.

Tonichelle said:

is there really a danger of that happening? I can't see a world or olympic champion in this day and age not having at least two 3a in a competition... if not three. seems to be the norm for international competition.

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Lambiel won 2006 Olympic silver and the 2006 World Championship with no 3A. Of course, he also had 4T+3T and 4T. Apparently he is going to try to win Olympics 2010 with a similar jump layout.

Plushy and his fans...like we are a caravan I feel..I was the first in these pages who said about plushy and the transitions comment, and it was before janetfan or hsus mentioning it. I also said i hope he didnt mention joubert on this. Actually I remember I had said to schiele in plushy thread about an interview of plush about jouvert long before the incident with mr judge. We had also posted the Nytimes article in plushy thread yesterday, it is not a new discovery. So the links are there, whatever plush said, good or bad, its not like Plushy fans hide the controversial articles. In Ny article by the way, he says many things who show Plushenko's opinions, but of course the first line was the one which should have been picked. Like Plushenko said that skaters might shake a bit, Daisuke has said in a video around christmas (hsus can find it i guess) that he hoped Plushy didnt comeback, and he was cute as ever. Abott also said that for him that it was intimidating when he first heard it but Plush is just another competitor and for me it was a great comment. Being rude and offensive to your coathletes is something else in my books, I m still waiting the links were he digges his competitors, while I m eating my first souvlaki home.

I can understand the nonfan thing and most gs friends i discovered here are non plush fans but are fans, and guess what, I m havinhg the best of fun with them , meaning they are objective and fans of fs. This is the big diffrence to haters for just being haters in my books, split the hair in two to offend a skater in order to support their fave, no good things come out of that.

Plushy is maybe disliked in some boards by the majority (hey that makes me special, right? )and i hope he doesnt end on podium so not so many people here have a trauma but without any uber moment involved as I take these statistics I can see whats going on in facebook or youtube, the audience in competitions, and no he is not the evil of earth and people are welcoming his comeback, they have missed him. I m going only by numbers as they are always more objective than me. Some skaters like MK, Plush , Yag, Lambiel, Irina and Joub have surpassed the small boundaries of fs crowd and are legends by now, with their medals, with their consistency or their talent, whatever. More skaters I just named a few. Disliked is strong word.

This king is back moto i see from Ny article to Nbc commentary and almnost everywhere has upset me a lot :boohoo:cause I had said it in my avatar when none believed plushy would come back, and I m sure I should have gotten the copyright and be rich by now.
Rant over, maybe i had too much oxygen on the plane..

I m trying to stay awake, lol, enjoy the opening ceremony!

DesertRoad said:

Jeremy may have the transitions, but his speed leaves a lot to be desired, as does his posture and his gawky lines (stop hunching those shoulders, for god's sakes). I don't find him particularly musical, either. I'm not sure where that reputation comes from. He tries to skate sensitively to melodramatic music, but the net effect is rather comical to me.

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Bit behind in the thread and a bit off topic, but I'm so glad to know I'm not the only one who just doesn't get the hoopla over Jeremy. I don't find him musical either nor am I wowed by his lines or overall appearance on the ice. He does seem to be getting more steady/consistent under Yuka, though.

Hsuhs' Japanese is close to non-existant. Meaning that even if I knew what's that video you're talking about, I wouldn't dare to pretend I can catch the intricacies of the language. I remember though a translation into English of that part of the interview, and it sounded like - iirc - 'Why is he back? Did he really have to? (laughing)". Since every elite male figure skater's supposed to answer that highly intelligent question.

But my Russian is pretty good. So here's another Zhenya Plushenko's quote:

Q: Who are your main rivals in Vancouver Olympics?

EP: About 10 guys. Canadians and Americans, also Swiss Stephane Lambiel is now back, and the Japanese guys are quite good. What's more important, is for the judges to be objective.

Take for instance the last World Championships. Brian Joubert made an obvious mistake in his 4+3 combo in the short program, he underrotated the quad, still he was first. I find it suspicious.

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http://www.allsportinfo.ru/index.php?id=32122

there was this interview in Plushy thread as well, all of it, back in september or octomber somewhere, and we had a looooong talk about it. You missed it
This plushy thread is a dinosaur like him, too old, many legends to speak. Like my grandma!

But... not everybody's in Zhenya's thread.

Wonder, why Zhenya's been trying to publicly question Brian's skating since the start of the season. What's in it for him?

Oh you should come, it is fun!
Maybe he is in love with him.
Or probably conciders him an equal competitor. In euros he complimented him. Said he was perfect in practices

"Figure skating is one of the most complicated kind of sports. In order to win gold, many things has to converge. What if your skate fell into a hole, what if you do less and you lose, what if your rivals perform so wonderfully that everyone end up with their mouths open from it? And one millions more "what if". Of course I want to get a good result, do a good skate but what will come out from it, I don't know. .
Do you have any idea how good Brian Joubert looked at trainings? He did quadruples with so much ease! But he made mistakes at the competition from the first quad on, he couldn't cope with his nerves, thought he was ready, he was perfect".

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chuckm said:

Because Inman is right, and TR isn't being scored correctly by ISU judges. The reason for this is that there is an ISU regulation applied to judges' scores that looks for unusual variances in scores for any skater. So what judges do to avoid review is give each skater a Skating Skills score, then cluster the other component categories around the SS score; TR is usually the lowest number.

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Thanks for your explanation. So are Pllushenko's skating skills better than Chan's skating skills because he is getting better score on that component? I haven't watched him on TV for ages so that I cannot tell.

Bennett said:

Thanks for your explanation. So are Pllushenko's skating skills better than Chan's skating skills because he is getting better score on that component? I haven't watched him on TV for ages so that I cannot tell.

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Obviously, the judges think his skating skills are better than Chan's. Plushenko has speed, the quad and a huge, consistent 3A, his jumps are huge and cover lots of ice, and he has excellent edging. He is also one of the most consistent skaters ever. Judges are influenced to a certain extent by consistent high performance over time. Plushenko has certainly demonstrated that.

Chan hasn't been around that long, and he hasn't exactly been the most consistent skater. He did well in the GP two seasons in a row, then bombed in two GPFs. His 3A isn't stable, and he's never skated 3 clean 3As (one in the SP and two in the FS) in an international performance. He skated well at 2009 4CC and 2009 Worlds. Unfortunately, Chan followed those performances with a mediocre performance at the World Team Championship, and skated injured at SC, where he had a disastrous SP and FS. It's not a good thing that Chan's two most recent performances before ISU judges were subpar.

Plushy is no longer a particularly speedy skater. On the other hand, nobody compares to Chan in the speed department, despite the intricacies of Chan's footwork and transitions.

Am I the only one who has no problem with both what Plushenko said or with what Chan said? I don't mind a bit of bragging and challenging in skating, with regards to a competitor's performance on ice. It's not like they're insulting each other personally (although I wouldn't mind that terribly, either, as long as they're funny and/or accurate). In these instances, I think they are both correct. Plushenko's competitors are quaking from his return, as well they should be. Chan is right when he says Plushenko has an older style of skating and has no transitions.

anyway,I think patric shuld jump clean 8 triples,including 2 3As in FS.

He never have done it ,so he is not a world champion.thing is, he always make sime mistakes

Well, some people seem that they just don't like Plushenko or his programs so that want to prove he's not that different from Chan in terms of "dissing". Well, there are may ways to make a point but obviously Chan's way is not very wise. Plushenko made blunt comments but didn't "diss" someone.

I think it's time to wait and see their skating. If a skater wants to emphasize something in figure skating, he can show what he believes is important and win the game. Then, it will prove his belief is right.

Let their skating talk.

chuckm said:

Obviously, the judges think his skating skills are better than Chan's. Plushenko has speed, the quad and a huge, consistent 3A, his jumps are huge and cover lots of ice, and he has excellent edging. He is also one of the most consistent skaters ever. Judges are influenced to a certain extent by consistent high performance over time. Plushenko has certainly demonstrated that.

Chan hasn't been around that long, and he hasn't exactly been the most consistent skater. He did well in the GP two seasons in a row, then bombed in two GPFs. His 3A isn't stable, and he's never skated 3 clean 3As (one in the SP and two in the FS) in an international performance. He skated well at 2009 4CC and 2009 Worlds. Unfortunately, Chan followed those performances with a mediocre performance at the World Team Championship, and skated injured at SC, where he had a disastrous SP and FS. It's not a good thing that Chan's two most recent performances before ISU judges were subpar.

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Most of the things you mention seem to be about jumps not skating skills.

DesertRoad said:

Plushy is no longer a particularly speedy skater. On the other hand, nobody compares to Chan in the speed department, despite the intricacies of Chan's footwork and transitions.

Am I the only one who has no problem with both what Plushenko said or with what Chan said? I don't mind a bit of bragging and challenging in skating, with regards to a competitor's performance on ice. It's not like they're insulting each other personally (although I wouldn't mind that terribly, either, as long as they're funny and/or accurate). In these instances, I think they are both correct. Plushenko's competitors are quaking from his return, as well they should be. Chan is right when he says Plushenko has an older style of skating and has no transitions.

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I think he could've said the exact same thing in a more politic way. No loss of meaning, nothing except making less personal digs. Given his comments surrounding the CoR performance as well (and I'm someone who was completely fine with what he said pre Worlds 09), I just want him to learn how to say things better.