Great Skater vs. Competitor

After years of watching a million competitions I have seen many great skaters never make it to the top of the mountain. By great skaters I mean someone who had awesome jumps and very good style and spins and looked very promising. Some very very good skaters have gone thru the ranks but due to their inability to be a strong competitor(eye of the tiger) have just simply faded away. Some did achieve a moment of recognition but it always seems like a fluke. I always thought Witt was a skater of mediocre style and technique, but she could always kick ass when it came to competing. I have categorize the following skaters into GREAT SKATERS, COMPETITORS, WHOLE package some are both, but very few. Can you think of others

Great skaters

KADAVY, WYLIE, SCOTT DAVIS, NICOLE BOBEK, JANET LYNN, ANGELA NIKODINOV, FUMIE SUGURI,

Competitors

KWAN, COHEN, SLUTSKAYA, BOITANO, BROWNING, STOYKO, MIDORI ITO, S. HUGHES, OKSANA B., WITT, SCOTT HAMILTON,

Whole Package

KWAN, COHEN, BROWNING, SCOTT HAMILTON, KRISTI Y.

WHO ELSE DO YOU THINK FITS THE CATEGORIES ABOVE?

great skaters and competitors Evgeny,Alexei,Brian Boitano,Michell Kwan,Katerina Witt.

In the Mens' I think Brian Orser

Yagudin & Plushenko!!!!!!!!!!!!! Both belong at least in two of those three lists above, in which of them, well ... I guess it's a matter of personal taste. I can't believe they weren't mentioned! (Great plus competitive plus full package Russian/European skaters do exist, more than only three! ).

Anke

Sasha? A great competitor? I adore her, but if she was a great competitor, she'd have at least one if not two world medals already.

boggartlaura said:

Sasha? A great competitor? I adore her, but if she was a great competitor, she'd have at least one if not two world medals already.

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There's a great quote from Paracelsus in Erich Fromm's "The Art of Loving", which reads: "Anyone who imagines that all fruits ripen at the same time as the strawberries knows nothing about grapes."

I think that Sasha has the talent for it, the mental toughness, and the killer instinct (and I think that's what MasterF meant by being a strong competitor), she just needs some time. Everyone has their own pace.

As for the first post, if the skaters in the third group are "the whole package", they should be in the first and the second group, as well. Btw, I was very surprised by the absence of Yagudin and Plushenko, too.

I'll wait til after this year to say that Sasha's a great competitor. So far I don't see it. Even though she has won she still hasn't had a clean long program and that won't work against the top 2 skaters in the world.

Great Competitors and Skaters-Eligibles: Michelle Kwan and Plushenko.

Great Competitors: Irina Slutskaya, Goebel, Sarah was a good competitor too but I don't know how she would be now that she actually have expectations. So far not so good for her.

Just Great Skaters: Emanuel Sandhu, Sasha, Angela and Takeshi.

Verdict still out on Jeff B too but he's a great skater.

Great (Pro) Competitors and skaters: Yagudin, Todd, Kristi, Brian B, Scott H and Kurt.

Great Competitors: Elvis, Kat Witt, Tara and Petrenko

I can't think of everyone right now. It's early.



Verdict still out on Jeff B too but he's a great skater.

I have limited knowledge of most other skaters. Of those that I know of, this is my opinion, in no particular order:

Great skaters:
Janet Lynn
Michelle Kwan
Sasha Cohen
Midori Ito

Competitors:
Michelle Kwan
Kristi Yamaguchi
Sarah Hughes

Whole Package:
Michelle Kwan
Kristi Yamaguchi
Sasha Cohen

I disagree with those who put Sasha as a competitor. A competitor is someone who can deliver when it counts. Sasha, unfortunately has proven otherwise, and her last 3 wins in a row have not convinced me to change my mind. If she could deliver in major competitions like Nationals and Worlds, not once but a few times over (I don't expect her to deliver like Michelle has countless times), then I would think she is a competitor.

A few more skaters I would put in the "great skater but not necessarily great competitor" list:

Josée Chouinard: The first skater I immediately thought of when I read the subject of this thread.

Christopher Bowman: I don't think this one needs any further explaination...

Emanuel Sandhu: Again, no further explaination necessary...

Sebastien Britten: If he was only able to land that #@$% 3-axel...

Eric Millot: French skater who beat Phillippe Candeloro for many years at their national championships, even though Phillippe had more success internationally. One commentator once called him "the male version of Josée Chouinard," because nerves always prevented him from medalling at Worlds or Olympics (even though, IMO, he was a better skater than Philippe).

I'd definitely add Surya Bonaly and Tim Goebel to the "better competitor than a skater" list.

Maybe there should be a separate category for skaters who had inconsistent eligible careers for many years, were finally able to win (or at least skate two clean programs at) one major competition towards the end of their eligible years, and then go on to become much more consistent and successful as pros. I can think of quite a few skaters who fit under this category:

Underhill and Martini: Struggled with nerves for years during their eligible career, had a very disappointing Olympics, went on to win 1984 Worlds and won everything they touched as pros.

Paul Wylie: Very inconsistent competitor during most of his eligible career, skated the two best programs of his life to win silver at the 1992 Olympics, and went on to have a very successful pro career.

Elizabeth Manley: Again, struggled with nerves for years before winning silver at the 1988 Olympics, but much more consistent as a pro.

Yuka Sato: Never came close to medalling at Worlds or Olympics before her one big eligible victory at 1994 Worlds, went on to become one of the most successful and respected pro skaters in recent years

Bechke and Petrov: Had mixed results (and for the most part, uninspiring programs) during most of their eligible career, but improved both their consistency and their artistry tremendously after turning pro.

And those are just the examples I can think of from the top of my head...

windspirit said:

[B

I think that Sasha has the talent for it, the mental toughness, and the killer instinct (and I think that's what MasterF meant by being a strong competitor), she just needs some time. Everyone has their own pace.[/B]

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I absolutely agree. It takes time to become a fully developed ballerina. No dancer, imo would have sufficient depth to perform Swan Lake at 16. Similarly, some skaters need more time than others to develop depth in their skating. It's easier, imo, to do 3/3s at 16 then perform a program that relates to the music other than what was choreographed.

I never understood the fuss about Tara winning the title at 15 as being so special. For me, she still wasn't anything special at that age except, of course, for the 3/3. She skated like a little girl which she was. That was fine but for me it was just ok.

Sasha, now 20 seems to be coming into her own. How much of that Act III Swan Lake music was Tatiana's and how much Sasha puts into it, we don't know.

Michelle and Tosca - The choreography is there but she has not yet put her stamp on it. The US Nats will be interesting to see how much MK will put intof that dark music.

And I can imagine what Irina will do with Lucia and it makes me nervous.

Joe

I can't believe that Tara was only mentioned once, and only for her Pro career. While I personally would not put her in the Great Skater category, she was one of the Greatest Competitors, IMHO.

guinevere

Great Skater vs Competitor

Great Skaters
Janet Lynn
Paul Wylie
Angela Nikodinov
Yuka Sato
Torvill/Dean

Great Competitors
Peggy Fleming
Brian Boitano
Michelle Kwan
Dorothy Hamill
Kristi Yamaguchi


Whole package
Peggy Fleming
Michelle Kwan
Dorothy Hamill
Kristi Yamaguchi

diamond

Great skaters:
you can't leave out skaters like

Ilia Kulik (whole p.)
Gordeeva & Grinkov (whole)
Mishuktienok & Dmitriev
Shen & Zhao (whole)
Anissina & Peizerat (whole)
Lu Chen (whole)

great skaters, not fulfilling the hopes, but great to watch een if they were not at their best

Igor Pashkevich
Tania Schevchenko
Marie-Pierre Leray
and many more...

I am not quite sure where you are going with this thought.

There are many reasons some skaters as you mentioned did not make it to the "top of the mountain."

Firstly, a skater like Janet Lynn - for instance - competed when figures counted. She was a lovely skater - or great skater as you mentioned, but was admittedly weak at figures. In those years figures were the deciding factor of the outcome of the competition. So a skater could be a great free skater, but even a mediocre skater who was skilled at figures could take home the gold. As Trixi Schuba once said "it is figure skating."

Even Brian Orser struggled with the figures aspect and he is a wonderful skater and was a great competitor.

Secondly, many skaters do suffer with their nerves when it comes to competing. It's not for everyone. That's why some do not hang around as long as others.

Thirdly, skaters did not stay eligible for years like they do now for economic reasons. Most of them had to move on for financial reasons.

Lastly, some skaters have to "pack it in" due to health or injury reasons. The body can only take so much. Competing in figure skating takes its toll.

All the skaters you have listed here are great skaters. Competitive life may have not been as successful for some as for others, but the main thing is we had the privilege of seeing these skaters compete. That was a treat in itself.

Great skater vs. competitor

Ladskater,

"All the skaters you have listed here are great skaters. Competitive life may have not been as successful for some as for others, but the main thing is we had the privilege of seeing these skaters compete. That was a treat in itself"

I agree with this statement 100%.

I made a mistake with Janet Lynn, not only was she a great skater she was also a great competitor, Figures aside. I do think that Brian Orser was also a great competitor. To me a great competitor doesn't have to win gold, but rather give 120% to skate their best program and Orser did that often.

What frustrates me is that I am tired of waiting for my favorite skaters to finally do a good performance. I drove 3 hours each way to see Skate America live only to be disgusted by the horrible performances of some of my favorite skaters (Ryan, Carolina, Bellemare, Dinev). Nicole Bobek, Caryn Cadavy, Angela Nikodinov and many more made me want to pull my hair because they seldom performed well, but when they did they moved me (Bobek at 98 Nationals, Cadavy at 87 Worlds, Angela at 2001 Nationals). I don't care if you ever win the gold, but damn it give it your best shot. Make the competition sweat, wow the audience, make us want more. Thats all I ask.


SHOW US YOU DIDN'T TRAIN FOR NOTHING.

i dont think you can really catagorize great skaters from competitors, i mean, you can train and train and train and some people it doesn't make a difference, i think that if someone really wants to go far you're able to see it in the way they skate and on their faces.. i dont think there is a way to catagorize that.

Great Skaters vs Competitors

Hi: I think tara Lipinski was one of the best competitors I have ever seen. I think because she was very young at the time people did not give her the credit she deserved.