# Thread: Top Ladies LP math/element analysis & comparisons to their "Yu-Na beating" LPs

1. Originally Posted by hurrah
I don't think she could do that without violating jumping regulations. If the rule prohibited consecutively jumped doubles, she would be forced to confront her nemesis jump.
So how come Yuna is the only one being forced while Mao can merrily ignore 3S? *confused*

Or based on your biased remark earlier -- which I responded to but you chose to igore -- you obviously want a way to bring Yuna down and prop Mao up... by changing the system?

And unless I'm mistaken I think Yuna may be able to throw 3F/3T or 3F/2T in there since she does 3F as a solo jump. (Though I'm not 100% clear on this )

I think a better thing to do to force elite level skaters to learn all their triples (except 3A for ladies) is to give an extra point or two as a bonus for executing them all successfully in a long program (no UR or wrong edge takeoffs tho; shoddy technique shouldn't be rewarded). It's like a skater getting deduction for a fall, except in reverse. Does that make sense? Since 1 point may be a big deal in a close competition, more skaters will be forced to do it. (or 2 points; but set some # for a special bonus or whatever)
ITA. I've been pushing this for so long.... I think skaters should be rewarded for showing ALL triple jumps (except 3A). With the way CoP is now, top skaters (Mao and Yu-Na included), can light up the scoreboards even though they can't successfully or consistently do all the triples. CoP makes it easier for skaters to pick and choose so that they can only do the jumps they excel in. For up and coming skaters, is there even a point in learning low scoring jumps like the 3S when you can just repeat a higher scoring jump? Once upon a time they had figures... maybe now what is needed is a separate system that shows a skater can do every type of jump, since CoP accounts for the spins and steps, or figure out some other way to award diversity.

Maybe make it so that you have to show every jump between the long and short programs. So say, for Yu-Na, as an example... her LP does not include her weakest jump (the 3Lo), so her solo jump in the SP should be the 3Lo. For Mao, her LP lacks the 3Lz and her 3S, so her solo jump should be the 3S and have the 3Lz in combination or re-arrange the LP. In the end, it doesn't change anything... it just means that all skaters (between their long and short programs) will have 5 jumps that are the same.... then they can choose how to gain their extra points from there.

So how come Yuna is the only one being forced while Mao can merrily ignore 3S? *confused*

Or based on your biased remark earlier -- which I responded to but you chose to igore -- you obviously want a way to bring Yuna down and prop Mao up... by changing the system?

And unless I'm mistaken I think Yuna may be able to throw 3F/3T or 3F/2T in there since she does 3F as a solo jump. (Though I'm not 100% clear on this )
Well, Mao doesn't need to do a triple salchow because she can do a triple axel, but I think she will have to master the lutz. And of course, regardless of points, anyone who can do the full set of triples is definitely a more well-rounded skater and should be awarded accordingly.

4. Originally Posted by bethissoawesome
ITA. I've been pushing this for so long.... I think skaters should be rewarded for showing ALL triple jumps (except 3A). With the way CoP is now, top skaters (Mao and Yu-Na included), can light up the scoreboards even though they can't successfully or consistently do all the triples. CoP makes it easier for skaters to pick and choose so that they can only do the jumps they excel in. For up and coming skaters, is there even a point in learning low scoring jumps like the 3S when you can just repeat a higher scoring jump? Once upon a time they had figures... maybe now what is needed is a separate system that shows a skater can do every type of jump, since CoP accounts for the spins and steps, or figure out some other way to award diversity.

Maybe make it so that you have to show every jump between the long and short programs. So say, for Yu-Na, as an example... her LP does not include her weakest jump (the 3Lo), so her solo jump in the SP should be the 3Lo. For Mao, her LP lacks the 3Lz and her 3S, so her solo jump should be the 3S and have the 3Lz in combination or re-arrange the LP. In the end, it doesn't change anything... it just means that all skaters (between their long and short programs) will have 5 jumps that are the same.... then they can choose how to gain their extra points from there.
Thanks. :-)

I hate to see skaters master only lutz, flips, loops & toeloops for points. (T because you need it for 3/3 or something)

I know some jumps are harder than the others, but depending on the skater it can change. For example, obviously Mao thinks 3A is easier than 3Lz or 3S because she doesn't do any of them. And Yuna skips 3Lo because she doesn't need to do it since it doesn't score as high as 3Lz or 3F.

I thinks it's VERY hard to master all jumps correctly, so it should be rewarded. And all elite level ladies should be able to do all triples (except 3A). And all men, of course, should master all triples, including 3A.

5. I don't think 3A is an easy jump for Mao. She practices it incessantly, spending training time on it that could be utilized on improving other elements. It's too bad that her natural ability and effort are not awarded sufficiently under the current system, when she is only one of the handful of women in figure skating history to have mastered it.

A female skater who can do the full set of triples can be deemed a well-rounded elite figure skater.

A female skater who can do the triple axel can be deemed to have an extraordinary ability that a majority of elite figure skaters cannot hope to achieve.

6. Originally Posted by hurrah
I don't think 3A is an easy jump for Mao. She practices it incessantly, spending training time on it that could be utilized on improving other elements. It's too bad that her natural ability and effort are not awarded sufficiently under the current system, when she is only one of the handful of women in figure skating history to have mastered it.

A female skater who can do the full set of triples can be deemed a well-rounded elite figure skater.
Refer to antman's post on judging. the pt difference between 3A & 3Lz is 2.5. The rest of the jumps (from 3Lz, 3F, etc.) have 0.5 difference.

The reason why Mao must have 3A is because she uses the inside edge takeoff for her lutz and she doesn't like 3S. So she has to have it, unless she plans on fixing her flutz in order to rack up enough points to counter Yuna's jump layout. And from what I've seen it looks like she's given up on fixing lutz because obviously it's easier to perfect 3A than to fix flutz. (Arakawa mentioned that it's very very difficult to fix flutzs & lips once you got used to doing them wrong.)

I've seen Mao cry during an interview in Japan when she was talking about losing 3A because that makes her a second-rate skater with only 3F, 3L & 3T (plus 2A). It's really heart breaking.

A female skater who can do the triple axel can be deemed to have an extraordinary ability that a majority of elite figure skaters cannot hope to achieve.
Thsi is only true if the skater has other triples. If she's using 3A to make up for the fact that she lacks two reliable triple jumps, then it's not.

Thanks. :-)

I hate to see skaters master only lutz, flips, loops & toeloops for points. (T because you need it for 3/3 or something)

I know some jumps are harder than the others, but depending on the skater it can change. For example, obviously Mao thinks 3A is easier than 3Lz or 3S because she doesn't do any of them. And Yuna skips 3Lo because she doesn't need to do it since it doesn't score as high as 3Lz or 3F.

I thinks it's VERY hard to master all jumps correctly, so it should be rewarded. And all elite level ladies should be able to do all triples (except 3A). And all men, of course, should master all triples, including 3A.
Completely agreed. Figure skating shouldn't be any different from other things in life... to truly master something, you need to master all the elements. And if skaters are have to show that they can complete all the jumps by including them in their programs... nothing is lost or gained in competition. It would be more or less the same of everyone starting out with the same base value (which they all still technically do with 0), and building from there. Figure skating is a bit like the all-around event in gymnastics... you aren't an all-around gymnast if you can't perform on the balance beam. In figure skating, you look for that all-around, well-rounded package... instead, skaters and coaches are using CoP to conveniently hide flaws and inabilities and they wind up getting rewarded for it lol. It really is backwards logic.

8. Of course she has jumps she's not comfortable with and needs more work on, but Mao has actually had all five triples recognized in competition, as recently as last season in fact...

I've seen Mao cry during an interview in Japan when she was talking about losing 3A because that makes her a second-rate skater with only 3F, 3L & 3T (plus 2A). It's really heart breaking.
Woah... that is taken completely out of context. Was Mao crying because of the 3A? Yes. But not becauase she was scared she would only be a second-rate skater... she was crying because the 3A is her favorite jump and she was scared that she might lose it or that people would think she lost it if she stopped competing with it. It had nothing to do with becoming a 2nd-rate skater.

Originally Posted by hurrah
Of course she has jumps she's not comfortable with and needs more work on, but Mao has actually had all five triples recognized in competition, as recently as last season in fact...
This is true. Mao also has had three separate 3-3 combinations recognized in competition as well.

10. What I'd like to know is how the unfactored program components are figured/determined. Each skater seems to have a range on their scorecard from high 8's on down and then it gets factored with 0.80 in the SP and something else in the LP.

Are judges provided a detailed listing of every non technical element...idk to explain.

These are YuNa's scores for PCS in SP

How are the values for the choreography/skating skills/etc...determined for each skater?

Program Components Unfactored Score Factor
Choreography/Composition 8.40 0.80
Interpretation 8.75 0.80
Performance/Execution 8.60 0.80
Skating Skills 8.60 0.80
Factored Program Components 33.80

11. from : http://www.tcfsc.com/NewJudging.htm

Program Components
In addition to the technical score, the judges will award points on a scale from 0 to 10 with increments of 0.25 for the program components to express the overall presentation and technical mastery of figure skating. The program component score (PCS) is calculated and factored by specified percentages.

In ladies, men's and pairs, the following five components are scored in the qualifying round, the short program and the free skate. In ice dancing, the following five components are scored in the original dance and the free dance:
Does this mean that the judges are creating the unfactored PCS values as they are viewing the performance? That's my question.

So how come Yuna is the only one being forced while Mao can merrily ignore 3S? *confused*

Or based on your biased remark earlier -- which I responded to but you chose to igore -- you obviously want a way to bring Yuna down and prop Mao up... by changing the system?

And unless I'm mistaken I think Yuna may be able to throw 3F/3T or 3F/2T in there since she does 3F as a solo jump. (Though I'm not 100% clear on this )
I will have to wait for the planned elements, but I remember it being mentioned during the Figure Skating Preview/Review that Yu-na has been practicing her LP with a second 3-3. It was in reference that up to that day Yuna has been low key but on the day she had to pratice with Mao, she did her LP clean with TWO triple-triple combos. I don't think I was imaging this.

So maybe

3Z-3T
3F-3T
2A
2A-2T-2L
3Z
2A
3S

But I doubt she would just do two 2As solo....I don't know...just guessing. We'll see I guess.

13. I don't think a we need incentive for skaters to use all five triples; If there was a skater who could perform all five triple with +goe she would be kicking a##; the only reason why joannie is not kicking a## is because she doesn't have a triple/triple. I like the way COP give you ways to make up for your flaws or the same skater will when everytime.

14. Originally Posted by enlight78
I don't think a we need incentive for skaters to use all five triples; If there was a skater who could perform all five triple with +goe she would be kicking a##; the only reason why joannie is not kicking *** is because she doesn't have a triple/triple. I like the way COP give you ways to make up for your flaws or the same skater will when everytime.
I think some folks are also underestimating the 3-3, particularly Yuna's 3LZ-3T. Yes a triple axel is hard, but so is doing a 3-3. There's a reason that we only had a few of them during the SP. And heck, given how well she does the 2A (it's obviously her money jump since she does it 3X in her LP), who says she can't try for the 3A next season? (That is, if she stays in compeition).

And I think people forget that the 3L is what caused all those crazy back problems Yuna had in '07 and '08. I wouldn't blame her for not doing it. I mean we all know what happened to Tara Lipinski after she did all those 3L-3L combos in 1998.

15. Originally Posted by hurrah
It looks like the whole system's been carefully crafted to make sure Yuna wins no matter what. It simply doesn't matter whether or not Mao makes history by making the first woman to suceed three triple axels in a competition.
Wow. Just wow. I don't know if you've done this intentionally or not, but you've just devalued one skater's passion, determination and a lifetime of efforts with that one comment. So you think a system is conspiring against Mao in order to prop Yu-na? Are you for real? Did Mao not also break the 200-mark, set a few WRs and get a 73+ mark under this same system? Mao not rewarded enough for the 3A? The difference between a 3Lz and a 3A is 2.2 points, more than four times the difference between any two jumps of descending difficulty (e.g. 3Lz and 3F).

What a double-standard. Yu-na's not so good because she doesn't have the full set of triples (the 3L), but that's suddenly OK and Mao's off the hook for not having a 3Lz and 3S because she has the 3A? And please stop crowning the 3A as the Second Coming of Jesus. I know it's extraordinarily difficult, but the 3A is not all there is to figure skating. Mao has numerous other qualities that keep her head and shoulder above the average skater, but the 3A is only one of them. With your myopic focus on the 3A, you have not only demeaned numerous outstanding skaters (in particular, Yu-na Kim), but also reduced Mao's beauty on ice to just the 3A. Shame on you if you're a fan of Mao's skating, as she is so much more than the 3A.

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