Top Ladies LP math/element analysis & comparisons to their "Yu-Na beating" LPs

hurrah · Feb 25, 2010

I so wish combos comprising more than one double jumps were prohibited because the ability to do such combos are not reflective of the skater's ability.

If they were prohibited, Yuna would be forced to replace her 2a-2t-2l combo with a 3l, which would mean that she would potentially garner 59.45 in base points.

Mao would be forced to replace her 3f-2l-2l with a 3f-3l, with a potential base point of 66.2.

Had this been the case, Mao would have had a fighting chance against Yuna, but as things stand, it's the GOE that determines who's going to win.

And GOEs only take into account things that Yuna is good at: speed. It doesn't take into account what Mao is good at: flexibility.

It looks like the whole system's been carefully crafted to make sure Yuna wins no matter what. It simply doesn't matter whether or not Mao makes history by making the first woman to suceed three triple axels in a competition.

Marrymeyunakim · Feb 25, 2010

hurrah said:
I so wish combos comprising more than one double jumps were prohibited because the ability to do such combos are not reflective of the skater's ability.

If they were prohibited, Yuna would be forced to replace her 2a-2t-2l combo with a 3l, which would be she would potentially garner 59.45 in base points.

Mao would be forced to replace her 3f-2l-2l with a 3f-3l, with a potential base point of 66.2.

Had this been the case, Mao would have had a fighting chance against Yuna, but as things stand, it's the GOE that determines who's going to win.

And GOEs only take into account things that Yuna is good at: speed. It doesn't take into account what Mao is good at: flexibility.

It looks like the whole system's been carefully crafted to make sure Yuna wins no matter what. It simply doesn't matter whether or not Mao makes history by making the first woman to suceed three triple axels in a competition.

Yes, Yu-Na deserves to be banned from competition because she's making the most out of the current system.

hurrah · Feb 25, 2010

No she shouldn't be banned. She just shouldn't be handed a victory on a platter.

Nadia01 · Feb 25, 2010

hurrah said:
I so wish combos comprising more than one double jumps were prohibited because the ability to do such combos are not reflective of the skater's ability.

If they were prohibited, Yuna would be forced to replace her 2a-2t-2l combo with a 3l, which would mean that she would potentially garner 59.45 in base points.

Mao would be forced to replace her 3f-2l-2l with a 3f-3l, with a potential base point of 66.2.

Had this been the case, Mao would have had a fighting chance against Yuna, but as things stand, it's the GOE that determines who's going to win.

And GOEs only take into account things that Yuna is good at: speed. It doesn't take into account what Mao is good at: flexibility.

It looks like the whole system's been carefully crafted to make sure Yuna wins no matter what. It simply doesn't matter whether or not Mao makes history by making the first woman to suceed three triple axels in a competition.

Nobody's forcing Mao to do 3F/2L/2L. She can do 3F3L for more points. She chose not to.

How does flexibility impact jumps? I'm totally confused. Speed gives Yuna an edge because it helps her with ice coverage & height. If flexibility can help Mao jump higher and cover more ice, I'm sure it'll get her high GOE too.

That's just ridiculous. The system wasn't designed to prop up Yuna or anyone else. It's there, and everyone has to bring their best game plan to win.

Look, you're acting like people are forcing Mao to do 3A or 3-2-2 combos, etc. But nobody is. Mao can choose to jump 2 3/3 combos to maximize her point potentials. She can also do 2A-3T like Yuna for more points. SHE CHOSE NOT TO. It's not Yuna's fault that Mao chose the jumps she did.

And it certainly isn't the COP's fault.

hurrah · Feb 25, 2010

Nadia01 said:
Nobody's forcing Mao to do 3F/2L/2L. She can do 3F3L for more points. She chose not to.

How does flexibility impact jumps? I'm totally confused. Speed gives Yuna an edge because it helps her with ice coverage & height. If flexibility can help Mao jump higher and cover more ice, I'm sure it'll get her high GOE too.

That's just ridiculous. The system wasn't designed to prop up Yuna or anyone else. It's there, and everyone has to bring their best game plan to win.

Look, you're acting like people are forcing Mao to do 3A or 3-2-2 combos, etc. But nobody is. Mao can choose to jump 2 3/3 combos to maximize her point potentials. She can also do 2A-3T like Yuna for more points. SHE CHOSE NOT TO. It's not Yuna's fault that Mao chose the jumps she did.

And it certainly isn't the COP's fault.

I think you are intentionally misreading my original point. I was saying that Yuna, or any other elite figure skater for that matter, should not be allowed to garner so many points for doing double jumps, particularly as this greatly covers up for deficiencies in their true jumping abilities. Two double consecutive jumps will be approximately equal to a triple jump.

I think this is a CoP fault.

GoE stands for 'Grades of Execution', so currently, when an element is executed well, it gets bonus point. I think many posters consider flexibility to be an important factor in whether or not an element is executed well, particularly for spirals and spins, although, for some strange reason, it does not seem to have an impact on GoEs.

Nadia01 · Feb 25, 2010

hurrah said:
I think you are intentionally misreading my original point. I was saying that Yuna, nor any other elite figure skater for that matter, should not be allowed to garner so many points for doing double jumps, particularly as this greatly covers up for deficiencies in their true jumping abilities. Two double consecutive jumps will be approximately equal to a triple jump.

But how does that work w/in COP system?

If you state that 2 double consecutive jumps = one triple, then more may attempt 3-2-2 to make up for their inability to do a true 3/3.

I'd be more concerned if that were to happen because I think that's very abusive.

I think a better thing to do to force elite level skaters to learn all their triples (except 3A for ladies) is to give an extra point or two as a bonus for executing them all successfully in a long program (no UR or wrong edge takeoffs tho; shoddy technique shouldn't be rewarded). It's like a skater getting deduction for a fall, except in reverse. Does that make sense? Since 1 point may be a big deal in a close competition, more skaters will be forced to do it. (or 2 points; but set some # for a special bonus or whatever)

hurrah · Feb 25, 2010

Nadia01 said:
But how does that work w/in COP system?

If you state that 2 double consecutive jumps = one triple, then more may attempt 3-2-2 to make up for their inability to do a true 3/3.

I'd be more concerned if that were to happen because I think that's very abusive.

I think a better thing to do to force elite level skaters to learn all their triples (except 3A for ladies) is to give an extra point or two as a bonus for executing them all successfully in a long program (no UR or wrong edge takeoffs tho; shoddy technique shouldn't be rewarded). It's like a skater getting deduction for a fall, except in reverse. Does that make sense? Since 1 point may be a big deal in a close competition, more skaters will be forced to do it. (or 2 points; but set some # for a special bonus or whatever)

That's why I said in my original statement that Yuna would be forced to do a 3l, Mao would be forced to do a 3f-3l.

Sk8n Mama · Feb 25, 2010

If they both skate clean, I don't think Mao can do it. That's not enough base value considering Yu-Na will get +GOE on several things and probaby higher PCS. Hoping they both bring it for a great finish to The Games. So worried about Joannie and how she'll deal with being out there for four minutes. That's a lot longer time to hold it together. I don't care how she skates as long as it doesn't leave her dispapointed in her skate on top of everything else. I don't know how she's doing it at all, she's so brave. Looking at the others (ie: Miki), I think their PCS will be too much lower than Yu-Na's to top her. They're fighting for the bronze.

Nadia01 · Feb 25, 2010

hurrah said:
That's why I said in my original statement that Yuna would be forced to do a 3l, Mao would be forced to do a 3f-3l.

No. Mao can opt to just do 3F/2L.

It also doesn't address the problem of ladies not performing all their triples. Mao does NOT do 3S in programs because she doesn't like it, the way Yuna doesn't do 3L.

Besides, Yuna will just find some other way to max her points if she can't do 2/2/2 to replace 3L she skips, maybe throw in another 3/3 if that's what it takes.

hurrah · Feb 25, 2010

Nadia01 said:
Besides, Yuna will just find some other way to max her points if she can't do 2/2/2 to replace 3L she skips, maybe throw in another 3/3 if that's what it takes.

I don't think she could do that without violating jumping regulations. If the rule prohibited consecutively jumped doubles, she would be forced to confront her nemesis jump.

Nadia01 · Feb 25, 2010

hurrah said:
I don't think she could do that without violating jumping regulations. If the rule prohibited consecutively jumped doubles, she would be forced to confront her nemesis jump.

So how come Yuna is the only one being forced while Mao can merrily ignore 3S? *confused*

Or based on your biased remark earlier -- which I responded to but you chose to igore -- you obviously want a way to bring Yuna down and prop Mao up... by changing the system?

And unless I'm mistaken I think Yuna may be able to throw 3F/3T or 3F/2T in there since she does 3F as a solo jump. (Though I'm not 100% clear on this )

bethissoawesome · Feb 25, 2010

Nadia01 said:
I think a better thing to do to force elite level skaters to learn all their triples (except 3A for ladies) is to give an extra point or two as a bonus for executing them all successfully in a long program (no UR or wrong edge takeoffs tho; shoddy technique shouldn't be rewarded). It's like a skater getting deduction for a fall, except in reverse. Does that make sense? Since 1 point may be a big deal in a close competition, more skaters will be forced to do it. (or 2 points; but set some # for a special bonus or whatever)

ITA. I've been pushing this for so long.... I think skaters should be rewarded for showing ALL triple jumps (except 3A). With the way CoP is now, top skaters (Mao and Yu-Na included), can light up the scoreboards even though they can't successfully or consistently do all the triples. CoP makes it easier for skaters to pick and choose so that they can only do the jumps they excel in. For up and coming skaters, is there even a point in learning low scoring jumps like the 3S when you can just repeat a higher scoring jump? Once upon a time they had figures... maybe now what is needed is a separate system that shows a skater can do every type of jump, since CoP accounts for the spins and steps, or figure out some other way to award diversity.

Maybe make it so that you have to show every jump between the long and short programs. So say, for Yu-Na, as an example... her LP does not include her weakest jump (the 3Lo), so her solo jump in the SP should be the 3Lo. For Mao, her LP lacks the 3Lz and her 3S, so her solo jump should be the 3S and have the 3Lz in combination or re-arrange the LP. In the end, it doesn't change anything... it just means that all skaters (between their long and short programs) will have 5 jumps that are the same.... then they can choose how to gain their extra points from there.

hurrah · Feb 25, 2010

Nadia01 said:
So how come Yuna is the only one being forced while Mao can merrily ignore 3S? *confused*

Or based on your biased remark earlier -- which I responded to but you chose to igore -- you obviously want a way to bring Yuna down and prop Mao up... by changing the system?

And unless I'm mistaken I think Yuna may be able to throw 3F/3T or 3F/2T in there since she does 3F as a solo jump. (Though I'm not 100% clear on this )

Well, Mao doesn't need to do a triple salchow because she can do a triple axel, but I think she will have to master the lutz. And of course, regardless of points, anyone who can do the full set of triples is definitely a more well-rounded skater and should be awarded accordingly.

Nadia01 · Feb 25, 2010

bethissoawesome said:
ITA. I've been pushing this for so long.... I think skaters should be rewarded for showing ALL triple jumps (except 3A). With the way CoP is now, top skaters (Mao and Yu-Na included), can light up the scoreboards even though they can't successfully or consistently do all the triples. CoP makes it easier for skaters to pick and choose so that they can only do the jumps they excel in. For up and coming skaters, is there even a point in learning low scoring jumps like the 3S when you can just repeat a higher scoring jump? Once upon a time they had figures... maybe now what is needed is a separate system that shows a skater can do every type of jump, since CoP accounts for the spins and steps, or figure out some other way to award diversity.

Maybe make it so that you have to show every jump between the long and short programs. So say, for Yu-Na, as an example... her LP does not include her weakest jump (the 3Lo), so her solo jump in the SP should be the 3Lo. For Mao, her LP lacks the 3Lz and her 3S, so her solo jump should be the 3S and have the 3Lz in combination or re-arrange the LP. In the end, it doesn't change anything... it just means that all skaters (between their long and short programs) will have 5 jumps that are the same.... then they can choose how to gain their extra points from there.

Thanks.

I hate to see skaters master only lutz, flips, loops & toeloops for points. (T because you need it for 3/3 or something)

I know some jumps are harder than the others, but depending on the skater it can change. For example, obviously Mao thinks 3A is easier than 3Lz or 3S because she doesn't do any of them. And Yuna skips 3Lo because she doesn't need to do it since it doesn't score as high as 3Lz or 3F.

I thinks it's VERY hard to master all jumps correctly, so it should be rewarded. And all elite level ladies should be able to do all triples (except 3A). And all men, of course, should master all triples, including 3A.

hurrah · Feb 25, 2010

I don't think 3A is an easy jump for Mao. She practices it incessantly, spending training time on it that could be utilized on improving other elements. It's too bad that her natural ability and effort are not awarded sufficiently under the current system, when she is only one of the handful of women in figure skating history to have mastered it.

A female skater who can do the full set of triples can be deemed a well-rounded elite figure skater.

A female skater who can do the triple axel can be deemed to have an extraordinary ability that a majority of elite figure skaters cannot hope to achieve.

Nadia01 · Feb 25, 2010

hurrah said:
I don't think 3A is an easy jump for Mao. She practices it incessantly, spending training time on it that could be utilized on improving other elements. It's too bad that her natural ability and effort are not awarded sufficiently under the current system, when she is only one of the handful of women in figure skating history to have mastered it.

A female skater who can do the full set of triples can be deemed a well-rounded elite figure skater.

Refer to antman's post on judging. the pt difference between 3A & 3Lz is 2.5. The rest of the jumps (from 3Lz, 3F, etc.) have 0.5 difference.

The reason why Mao must have 3A is because she uses the inside edge takeoff for her lutz and she doesn't like 3S. So she has to have it, unless she plans on fixing her flutz in order to rack up enough points to counter Yuna's jump layout. And from what I've seen it looks like she's given up on fixing lutz because obviously it's easier to perfect 3A than to fix flutz. (Arakawa mentioned that it's very very difficult to fix flutzs & lips once you got used to doing them wrong.)

I've seen Mao cry during an interview in Japan when she was talking about losing 3A because that makes her a second-rate skater with only 3F, 3L & 3T (plus 2A). It's really heart breaking.

A female skater who can do the triple axel can be deemed to have an extraordinary ability that a majority of elite figure skaters cannot hope to achieve.

Thsi is only true if the skater has other triples. If she's using 3A to make up for the fact that she lacks two reliable triple jumps, then it's not.

bethissoawesome · Feb 25, 2010

Nadia01 said:
Thanks.

I hate to see skaters master only lutz, flips, loops & toeloops for points. (T because you need it for 3/3 or something)

I know some jumps are harder than the others, but depending on the skater it can change. For example, obviously Mao thinks 3A is easier than 3Lz or 3S because she doesn't do any of them. And Yuna skips 3Lo because she doesn't need to do it since it doesn't score as high as 3Lz or 3F.

I thinks it's VERY hard to master all jumps correctly, so it should be rewarded. And all elite level ladies should be able to do all triples (except 3A). And all men, of course, should master all triples, including 3A.

Completely agreed. Figure skating shouldn't be any different from other things in life... to truly master something, you need to master all the elements. And if skaters are have to show that they can complete all the jumps by including them in their programs... nothing is lost or gained in competition. It would be more or less the same of everyone starting out with the same base value (which they all still technically do with 0), and building from there. Figure skating is a bit like the all-around event in gymnastics... you aren't an all-around gymnast if you can't perform on the balance beam. In figure skating, you look for that all-around, well-rounded package... instead, skaters and coaches are using CoP to conveniently hide flaws and inabilities and they wind up getting rewarded for it lol. It really is backwards logic.

hurrah · Feb 25, 2010

Of course she has jumps she's not comfortable with and needs more work on, but Mao has actually had all five triples recognized in competition, as recently as last season in fact...

bethissoawesome · Feb 25, 2010

Nadia01 said:
I've seen Mao cry during an interview in Japan when she was talking about losing 3A because that makes her a second-rate skater with only 3F, 3L & 3T (plus 2A). It's really heart breaking.

Woah... that is taken completely out of context. Was Mao crying because of the 3A? Yes. But not becauase she was scared she would only be a second-rate skater... she was crying because the 3A is her favorite jump and she was scared that she might lose it or that people would think she lost it if she stopped competing with it. It had nothing to do with becoming a 2nd-rate skater.

hurrah said:
Of course she has jumps she's not comfortable with and needs more work on, but Mao has actually had all five triples recognized in competition, as recently as last season in fact...

This is true. Mao also has had three separate 3-3 combinations recognized in competition as well.

nghtvsn · Feb 25, 2010

What I'd like to know is how the unfactored program components are figured/determined. Each skater seems to have a range on their scorecard from high 8's on down and then it gets factored with 0.80 in the SP and something else in the LP.

Are judges provided a detailed listing of every non technical element...idk to explain.

These are YuNa's scores for PCS in SP

How are the values for the choreography/skating skills/etc...determined for each skater?

Program Components Unfactored Score Factor
Choreography/Composition 8.40 0.80
Transitions/Linking Footwork 7.90 0.80
Interpretation 8.75 0.80
Performance/Execution 8.60 0.80
Skating Skills 8.60 0.80
Factored Program Components 33.80

Top Ladies LP math/element analysis & comparisons to their "Yu-Na beating" LPs

hurrah

Marrymeyunakim

hurrah

Nadia01

hurrah

Nadia01

hurrah

Sk8n Mama

Nadia01

hurrah

Nadia01

bethissoawesome

hurrah

Nadia01

hurrah

Nadia01

bethissoawesome

hurrah

bethissoawesome

nghtvsn

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