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- Aug 2, 2003
I like sasha's spin. Its amazing. So what if you see the band of fabric. 
Sasha's "Beaver Cleaver" Spin??
- Thread starter BravesSkateFan
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- Aug 17, 2003
Joesitz said:
Actually, ballerinas are "permitted" to hold their free leg, we can see it quite often in modern choreography pieces. Of course, ballerinas don't wear heavy boots with blades, and they never do sit spins either, and no one can manage a transition from the sit spin to an "I"spin, without holding a leg.
Flexibility is necessary in skating, without it we'd never see decent spirals, or lay-backs and Y-spins. Athletes were performing these elements for ages, and we saw few skaters trying to get their legs almost as high, as Sasha's, but SC is so uniquely athletically gifted, she really excels with those elements (which even more evident now with COP).
Nowadays we're witnessing a new tier of younger skaters coming up in the ranks, who work on their flexibility, as well as their jumps. Japanese Yukina Ota is really special and exciting skater, because her rear kind of flexibility allows her to perform difficult, and seldom seen moves. Young Carline Zhao Zhang is doing some clearly Sasha - inspired elements, and it helps her to stand out among peers.
Back to ballet. I'd say flexibility is a MUST in dancing today, maybe even more so, than in figure skating. With emergence of incomparable Sylvie Guillem of France, famous for her outstanding extensions, others like England's Darcey Bussell, Russian Svetlana Zaharova and Anastasia Volichkova have followed the suit.
http://www.imagidanse.com/graphismes/cinematheque/Guillem/photo3.jpg
http://members.xoom.virgilio.it/lillial/Guillemlago.jpg
Today you won't find a principal dancer in the respectable ballet company, who wouldn't have great extensions. Not your cup of tea? Perhaps. But welcome to reality.
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- Jun 21, 2003
Registered, that's quite a pose! (The first one. For some reason the second link didn't work for me. Do you have to be a "member" of something to access it?) I see that the dancer is not holding up her leg, just resting her hand on it. What makes the picture arresting to the eye is the muscles all the way up and down her leg. Sort of like the muscles in Sasha's leg in the V photo that everyone is so excercised about, LOL.
I kind of like the idea of Sasha as the "new wave" of skaters inspired more by modern dance than by clasical ballet.
About the BC spin itself, I think of it as an athletic feat rather than an aesthetic one. I do not think that the position itself is very attractive, because in order to achieve it she has to kind of fold herself in, with slightly rounded back and shoulders. I don't like the doughnut spin either, for the same reason.
The Y-spin, on the other hand, seems free and "open" in contrast. There is something friendly about it, like the skater is offering some part of herself to the audience, instead of shutting the audience out. (And I'm not talking about the split, LOL.)
I am not explaining this very well, because I don't know much about dance. But that's how the two spins strike me -- one is "open" and the other is "closed." Does that make sense?
Mathman
I kind of like the idea of Sasha as the "new wave" of skaters inspired more by modern dance than by clasical ballet.
About the BC spin itself, I think of it as an athletic feat rather than an aesthetic one. I do not think that the position itself is very attractive, because in order to achieve it she has to kind of fold herself in, with slightly rounded back and shoulders. I don't like the doughnut spin either, for the same reason.
The Y-spin, on the other hand, seems free and "open" in contrast. There is something friendly about it, like the skater is offering some part of herself to the audience, instead of shutting the audience out. (And I'm not talking about the split, LOL.)
I am not explaining this very well, because I don't know much about dance. But that's how the two spins strike me -- one is "open" and the other is "closed." Does that make sense?
Mathman
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- Aug 17, 2003
Mathman said:
Hmm, link works for me, I found the pic. on Google, you don't have to be a member to access it.
I wasn't looking for pictures of dancers, holding their legs, rather I wanted to find those, that showcase an importance of extension in today's ballet.
http://www.dmu.ac.uk/~jafowler/sylvie.html
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- Jun 21, 2003
Something must be wrong with my computer. I can go to the main page of this link, but I can't get the picture showing the great extension, except the thumbnail. (The next to last picture in the right-hand column.)
MM
PS. How about these two.
http://www.wbos.com/images/ballet.jpg
http://radio.weblogs.com/0100243/images/2002/02/22/cohen2002.jpg
MM
PS. How about these two.
http://www.wbos.com/images/ballet.jpg
http://radio.weblogs.com/0100243/images/2002/02/22/cohen2002.jpg
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- Aug 7, 2003
Mathman...that makes PERFECT sense! and I agree totally.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Hi Registered - Your quote:
"Today you won't find a principal dancer in the respectable ballet company, who wouldn't have great extensions. Not your cup of tea? Perhaps. But welcome to reality"
I have seen ballet for at least 40-45 years, I am quite familiar with the art form. Royal Ballet; Royal Danish; Paris Opera Ballet; Kirov, Bolshoi, NYC, ABT, San francisco, Robert Joffrey; Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, South Africa and I'm sure many others. the ballet reality has been with me for years and years.
The cup of tea was about the BC and Bielman spins - not beautiful extensions. I thought I was clear on that since I am a balletomane and I do separate ballet from figure skating.
I've been in reality for some time, and I know the difference between contortionism and Great Extensions. I actuall studied both in acrobatic and ballet classes.
You are correct about 'modern' ballet. Certainly if a ballerina is doing a ballet version of the French Can Can, she will hold her leg up in a BC position. It's part of the folk dance. I've actually seen Gaite Parisien not too long ago and the gals after holding their legs up there, let go and clapped their hands beneath before splitting on the floor. I should have said 'clasical' ballet.
Flexibility is necessary in ALL sports and dance otherwise the athlete or dancer is in trouble. It is a definite aid in the technique as much as natural rotation is or natural spring for jumping. Some years back a ballerina married to a football player gave the team classes in ballet barre. The team won that year. (It was a news item.)
Indeed Sasha's flexibility is quite obvious and aside from the BC which I do not like, I do like the catch foot camel (one hand one leg) - very pretty and not acrobatic, as was Maria Butryskaya's.
As mentioned on another post, I saw Sylvia Fontana do the BC recently and quite good, and of course, with all the other skaters now doing the BC it will become a regular acrobatic feat in figure skating. It doesn't make me like it any better than the wrestling position one has to get into to do the acrobatic Bielman spin.
As for today's ballerinas and ballerinos, I see them quite often and I've seen ballerinas from old old film clips who also have great extensions The tradition goes back to Cechetti who taught ballet way back in Italy, France, Russia and maybe Denmark.
Joe
"Today you won't find a principal dancer in the respectable ballet company, who wouldn't have great extensions. Not your cup of tea? Perhaps. But welcome to reality"
I have seen ballet for at least 40-45 years, I am quite familiar with the art form. Royal Ballet; Royal Danish; Paris Opera Ballet; Kirov, Bolshoi, NYC, ABT, San francisco, Robert Joffrey; Boston, Philadelphia, Miami, South Africa and I'm sure many others. the ballet reality has been with me for years and years.
The cup of tea was about the BC and Bielman spins - not beautiful extensions. I thought I was clear on that since I am a balletomane and I do separate ballet from figure skating.
I've been in reality for some time, and I know the difference between contortionism and Great Extensions. I actuall studied both in acrobatic and ballet classes.
You are correct about 'modern' ballet. Certainly if a ballerina is doing a ballet version of the French Can Can, she will hold her leg up in a BC position. It's part of the folk dance. I've actually seen Gaite Parisien not too long ago and the gals after holding their legs up there, let go and clapped their hands beneath before splitting on the floor. I should have said 'clasical' ballet.
Flexibility is necessary in ALL sports and dance otherwise the athlete or dancer is in trouble. It is a definite aid in the technique as much as natural rotation is or natural spring for jumping. Some years back a ballerina married to a football player gave the team classes in ballet barre. The team won that year. (It was a news item.)
Indeed Sasha's flexibility is quite obvious and aside from the BC which I do not like, I do like the catch foot camel (one hand one leg) - very pretty and not acrobatic, as was Maria Butryskaya's.
As mentioned on another post, I saw Sylvia Fontana do the BC recently and quite good, and of course, with all the other skaters now doing the BC it will become a regular acrobatic feat in figure skating. It doesn't make me like it any better than the wrestling position one has to get into to do the acrobatic Bielman spin.
As for today's ballerinas and ballerinos, I see them quite often and I've seen ballerinas from old old film clips who also have great extensions The tradition goes back to Cechetti who taught ballet way back in Italy, France, Russia and maybe Denmark.
Joe
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- Aug 17, 2003
Joesitz said:
Hi Joe,
I wouldn't try to challenge your likes or dislikes. But I can't quite comprehend why Guillem's famous 6-o'clock GREAT EXTENSION would be considered beautiful, but a skater's, properly performing an I-spin (and I do not call it a BC spin), would be an act of contortionist. To me it looks like the same 180 degree extension.
I didn't come to think of a Cancan, but since you brought it up I have to address a factual inaccuracy. The Cancan was "born" in the 1880's on the Monmartre, it's a pure show routine, and is not considered a folk dance in any way, shape or form.
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- Jul 11, 2003
Hi Registered - Thanks for your reply. I do have my likes and dislikes and I prefer Darjeeling tea to Orange Pekoe
Ms Guillem's 6 o'clock extension for me is quite acceptable if it is performed as an arabasque ponchee a la Swan Lake or any of the other Petipa ballets. (Charlotte to skaters.) I even would approve the 'a la seconde' position as performed in Black Swan Pad de Deux (Y spin to skaters). But these ballet 'tricks' are not supported by hands. Just pure muscle control and a lot of limberness.
I'm not sure about Ms Guillem's 6 o'clock extension. If it is in the form of a BC and she doesn't hold her foot up there and it fits happily in the choreography I could like it or learn to like it.
Figure Skating does borrow from many forms of dance for whatever the music calls for. Some things I like and some I don't.
BTW, you are right that the Can Can is a show dance and not a true folk dance as the Tango is to Argentina. I should have used the term 'character dance' which covers a multitude of different ethnic dances - folk or otherwise.
And if you like the overextensions in figure skating, I predict you will be seeing more and more of them. Check out Bebe Liang at US Nats if she skates well and ABC allows all of the competition to be seen.
Cheers - Joe
Ms Guillem's 6 o'clock extension for me is quite acceptable if it is performed as an arabasque ponchee a la Swan Lake or any of the other Petipa ballets. (Charlotte to skaters.) I even would approve the 'a la seconde' position as performed in Black Swan Pad de Deux (Y spin to skaters). But these ballet 'tricks' are not supported by hands. Just pure muscle control and a lot of limberness.
I'm not sure about Ms Guillem's 6 o'clock extension. If it is in the form of a BC and she doesn't hold her foot up there and it fits happily in the choreography I could like it or learn to like it.
Figure Skating does borrow from many forms of dance for whatever the music calls for. Some things I like and some I don't.
BTW, you are right that the Can Can is a show dance and not a true folk dance as the Tango is to Argentina. I should have used the term 'character dance' which covers a multitude of different ethnic dances - folk or otherwise.
And if you like the overextensions in figure skating, I predict you will be seeing more and more of them. Check out Bebe Liang at US Nats if she skates well and ABC allows all of the competition to be seen.
Cheers - Joe
I don't know much about ballet. This is a gorgeous picture:
http://thumba.image.altavista.com/image/57315326
It is the same extension as Sasha's but looks to be graceful and flowing.
I realize Sasha has skates to contend with but there isn't anything graceful and flowing about it. I, like Joe, don't really care for moves where skaters have to wrestle themselves into position. If it takes that much work, surely it can't be good on the body.
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- Jul 26, 2003
Pookie, it's the picture that caught my attention, too. And she's standing on her toes, which makes it all even more amazing.
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- Oct 7, 2003
That's a remarkable picture, Pookie! Thanks for posting it!
ITA with euterpe about the graceful extension. The other thing I like about the pose is there's no sense of strain in the upper body. The arms are remarkably relaxed! The part I like least about the picture of Sasha's BC spin is how her upper body is "bowed" out. I think this is part of the transition to a much more upright position on her part, but it just illustrates that she acheives that position with brute force.
BTW, does anyone have a good picture of Sasha's final position in this spin? It would be interesting to compare!
ITA with euterpe about the graceful extension. The other thing I like about the pose is there's no sense of strain in the upper body. The arms are remarkably relaxed! The part I like least about the picture of Sasha's BC spin is how her upper body is "bowed" out. I think this is part of the transition to a much more upright position on her part, but it just illustrates that she acheives that position with brute force.
BTW, does anyone have a good picture of Sasha's final position in this spin? It would be interesting to compare!
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- Jul 27, 2003
Pookie that picture is beautiful. Whoever mentioned the struggle to get into the positions is right....very unattractive. And before the DECASM (don't ever criticize a Sasha move) gang starts whining that goes for Bielman's, Donut's, and some Y's (agree with Mathman about the openness, kind of like a great big HI!...thanks for showing us the light ) too. I mean if Sasha can't make a move look good it's doubtful that anyone can IMO.
Piel
) too. I mean if Sasha can't make a move look good it's doubtful that anyone can IMO.Piel
These were the only two I could find. You have to copy and paste the links in another browser to get them to work. The second one you have to scroll down a little.
http://www.toeloopy.com/images/events2002-2003/RockCenter/sc02rc0535.jpg
http://lequipe.numericable.fr/HTML/Ski/ISU_canada.html
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- Aug 1, 2003
Joesitz said:
I've yet to see a dancer, any dancer, that can hold the "I spin" position without use of hands. Y, yes; I, no. I'd also like to point out that many a skater may be able to hold a position while standing on the ground. Can a dancer hold them while whirling about in a spin? With or without hands? Personally I've never seen comparisons of positions in skating and dance to be at all useful. They're very different animals and should be treated as such.
Pookie, nice pic, but the dancer was probably captured in a moment of movement and wasn't holding that position for more than a second or two at most. Also, her leg is not as high as Sasha's, it is not all the way up next to her head. If the dancer had been spinning and dealing with the laws of physics, I doubt she'd have looked as graceful, lol. Again, really, why compare dancers to skaters? Both do what they do very well. Neither needs to look or be more like the other to improve or be considered great IMO.
Editing to say I really don't like the I-spin, but I appreciate the effort it takes to do it. I don't care for the Y-spin either; seriously over-used! I only like Beillmans if they done well and held for longer than 1-2 revolutions; hello, if you're going to get in that position, stay there and make it worth the effort!
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- Jun 21, 2003
Those are nice pictures, Pookie. Her final position does look quite pretty in both of them.
Here is Sasha's Y-spin, if anyone wants to compare. What I liike about both of these spins is that you can tell by the tautness in her body (not to mention the concentration on her face) just how much effort it takes, even for a person of great flexibility, to get your leg way up there.
http://www.avis.ne.jp/~tkosawa/pic/photo-fig-s_cohen_l.jpg
Mathman
Here is Sasha's Y-spin, if anyone wants to compare. What I liike about both of these spins is that you can tell by the tautness in her body (not to mention the concentration on her face) just how much effort it takes, even for a person of great flexibility, to get your leg way up there.
http://www.avis.ne.jp/~tkosawa/pic/photo-fig-s_cohen_l.jpg
Mathman
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- Jul 11, 2003
Pookie - Great pic of the ballerina! Do you know who she is?
For those interested she was probably being partnered by a danseur while she raised her leg in passe position and then extended it up to her ear without using her hands. It was pure muscle and a lot of fluidity. When she reached the possible top she could (and in the pic it is High), the partner probably let go and she balanced on TOE for several seconds (hamming it up to the audience - grimmacing is out of the question) before gracefully turning it into an arabasque. I've seen hundreds of them. Nobody, imo, can be so flexible and graceful at the same time as a classical ballelrina. Sorry skate fans but that's the way I see it.
peachstateskater - You probably never will see a dancer hold a leg in the air and spin. Dancers pirouette- not spin, and they don't hold legs. Heaven forbid. Your childhood ballet teacher would have a fit.
Mathman - Sasha's Y spin is as good as it gets. There is less wrestling with the hand and the leg in this so I give the trick a passing mark.
But I hold my stand on BCs and Bielmans - They are Orange Pekoe not Darjeeling.
Joe
For those interested she was probably being partnered by a danseur while she raised her leg in passe position and then extended it up to her ear without using her hands. It was pure muscle and a lot of fluidity. When she reached the possible top she could (and in the pic it is High), the partner probably let go and she balanced on TOE for several seconds (hamming it up to the audience - grimmacing is out of the question) before gracefully turning it into an arabasque. I've seen hundreds of them. Nobody, imo, can be so flexible and graceful at the same time as a classical ballelrina. Sorry skate fans but that's the way I see it.
peachstateskater - You probably never will see a dancer hold a leg in the air and spin. Dancers pirouette- not spin, and they don't hold legs. Heaven forbid. Your childhood ballet teacher would have a fit.
Mathman - Sasha's Y spin is as good as it gets. There is less wrestling with the hand and the leg in this so I give the trick a passing mark.
But I hold my stand on BCs and Bielmans - They are Orange Pekoe not Darjeeling.
Joe
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- Oct 7, 2003
OK, now I'm confused! Just what is the difference between a Y Spin and an I Spin? I know in most skater's Y spins the leg isn't lifted as high as that picture that Mathman posted (thanks!) so that it looks more like the letter Y. Sasha's leg is so high that at first I thought it was a picture of a "good" I spin! What I like is that her upper body looks more comfortable, and there isn't a big gap between her chest and her leg. ( I couldn't get those two links you just posted to work, Pookie )
And I can see that the I Spin involves both arms instead of just one. Am I missing something? Is the leg more to the side in the I Spin?
Just what is the difference between a Y Spin and an I Spin? I know in most skater's Y spins the leg isn't lifted as high as that picture that Mathman posted (thanks!) so that it looks more like the letter Y. Sasha's leg is so high that at first I thought it was a picture of a "good" I spin! What I like is that her upper body looks more comfortable, and there isn't a big gap between her chest and her leg. ( I couldn't get those two links you just posted to work, Pookie )And I can see that the I Spin involves both arms instead of just one. Am I missing something? Is the leg more to the side in the I Spin?
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