Artur Werner on Olympic pairs | Golden Skate

Artur Werner on Olympic pairs

Ptichka

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http://ptichkafs.livejournal.com/45911.html

Lesson in Chinese

So, dear readers, imagine yourselves once again up in the stands of the Pacific Coliseum in Vancouver, awaiting the battle among the pair skaters who were at the top after yesterday’s short programs, and were now in the last two groups.

As you recall, short program results came as a surprise not just to the participants, but for their federations as well. The “magnificent five” were comprised of Xue Shen/ Hongbo Zhao, Aliona Savchenko/ Robin Szolkowy, Yuko Kavaguti/ Alexander Smirnov, Qing Pang/ Jian Tong, and Dan Zhang/ Hao Zhang. Maria Mukhortova with Maxim Trankov and Vera Bazarova with Yury Larionov came eighth and twelfth, respectively.

Last night, I watched the last group’s skate on a tiny TV screen. Seeing the recording today, I see that Savchenko and Szolkowy go more than their deserved; fair judging would have placed them third, if not fourth or even fifth. The Chinese showed quite strong and difficult short programs. Of course, my heart goes out to Masha and Max losing their chance for an Olympic medal, but they can only blame their nerves and their coach.

All that was yesterday. By today, the tears of yesterday’s losses have dried up, the joy of yesterday’s victory is safely tucked away, and the taught nerves are ready for the new performance. Will they hold up under this ultimate pressure?

Most likely, Tamara Nikolayevna Moskvina couldn’t quite hide from Yuko Kavaguti the foul remark of the Russian sports official Irina Rodnina which the paper “Soviet Sport” published on September 12, 2009 – “I think one could find a nice Russian girl for such a gorgeous guy as Alexander Smirnov. The choice of partner is questionable here.”

The famous and medaled pair skater of the last century has not only a sense of tactfulness and propriety, but has deemed it appropriate to insult a skater who’s been training with Igor Borisovich and Tamara Nikolayeva Moskvins for many years, and not only speaks Russian fluently, but has a Russian citizenship – meaning she is a Russian. Furthermore, if Rodnina doesn’t consider the petite Japanese skater a beauty, it’s her personal opinion, better kept to herself. Especially when it comes from one, whose nickname during her athletic career was “flying stool” due to her height and elegant figure.

I’ll take the liberty of only concentrating the best pairs as well as our teams; the rest skater for the figure, for statistics, or just for themselves.

Vera Bazarova and Yury Larionov showed a difficult and packed program; however, it wasn’t clean, but had many tiny errors. Nonetheless, those kids proved that Russian team can well rely on them for the 2014 Sochi Olympics.

To that end, though, I’d be so bold as to recommend that Lyudmila Kalinina go to Igor Borisovich and Tamara Nikolayevna Moskvins to let those great masters polish those diamonds properly. The Perm natives lack the ability to show their “chocolate” side, they lack the brilliance, and their movements don’t have a tiger’s elegance.

Otherwise, I fear Valentin Piseev can take the team of the future from Kalinina, and give them to some Oleg Vasiliev, who’ll destroy their career as he’s already done with Victoria Volchkova, Natalya Shestakova, Pavel Lebedev, and others.
Dan Zhang/ Hao Zhang, who lost only to Totmianina and Marinin in Turin, were down in fifth after the short program. This made them try all that much harder in the free. They had a beautiful, difficult program full of hard elements and original lifts. Even though Hao fell on the 2A-3T, the Chinese remained in fifth.

Following them were Maria Mukhortova and Maxim Trankov; in my opinion, they are their coach’s victims. The skaters looked even more tired than they did at Europeans. Their version of the famous “Love Story” looked like a play that’s being performed in the thousandth and first time. Both Masha and Maxim made several mistakes in the triple Salchow, 3T-2T combo, and several other elements. Nonetheless, they managed to move up from the eighth to seventh place.

Perhaps Vasiliev should demand that ISU makes its judges more like Themis and wear a blindfold – perhaps this way his students can medal with such skating.

First up in the last group were the European champions. Their first element was supposed to be a quad salchow and the figure skating world was playing a guessing game – will Yuko and Alexander take the risk? Will their coach bless this risk? As we have found out, the answer was “no”. As I feared, Yuko’s nerves didn’t hold up. The salchow lost one rotation; Yuko made a mistake in one place and fell in another. Tamara Moskvina’s “magic alloy” splintered on its ultimate test and finished just off the podium.
The German team also couldn’t avoid falls. However, Ingo Steuer chose not to take risks, and only included in the free program the elements that Aliona Savchenko and Robin Szolkowy can do in their sleep. That, according to the new judging rules, was deemed enough for an Olympic medal. The medal was bronze, though they really wanted gold.

The Chinese team Qing Pang/ Jian Tong showed the highest level of pair skating; it had fire, spice, elegance, and much much more. They were far better than the Germans and even better than the rest, but their short program errors gave them a silver medal instead of gold.

Meanwhile, the veterans of Chinese pair skating Xue Shen/ Hongbo Zhao, the Turin bronze medalists, became Vancouver Olympic champions. In something like the first time in the history of pair skating Russia ended up off the podium.

No doubt, the Chinese will remain the most dangerous medal contenders at the Olympics in So-Chi. To overcome them, one would need to start by reinstating the Soviet Union, together with its system of benefits for the best athletes and their parents.
In part, this is quietly happening already. Russia has practically gone back to the one party system, and tries to cover the fleeing birdies with the wings of its two-headed eagle, especially those who have decided they can already fly solo.

All that’s left is to reinstate the control over living arrangements and resurrect in the largest urban centers of the country the national factories where talented skaters’ parents can be provided with employment. In another fifteen or twenty years, the country would again have all the medals. Provided, of course, that the prices on oil and gas do not tank.
 

evangeline

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Nov 7, 2007
Thanks for the translation!

Though I do have a question. Werner seems very critical of Oleg Vasiliev as a coach, is this warranted? I'm not terribly familiar with Vasiliev's coaching history, but Werner seems very harsh here.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Thanks for the great translation! :rock:

What does Werner mean by skaters "showing their chocolate side?"

Do you think that Werner is right that the fiure skating establishment in Russia is slowly reconstructing the old Soviet apparatus that produced so many great pairs teams in the past?
 

soogar

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Dec 18, 2003
I hope the Russians resurrect their pairs program because the pairs competition is really lacking. I find it ironic that now Russian pairs have the same problems as American pairs in that they break up too soon instead of working through bad results.

The Chinese really don't have that impressive a pairs program. They have had the same 3 pairs for many years and they don't have any new pairs in the wings. Of course, by 2014, the pairs competition may be so weak that a 39 and 35 year old Shen and Zhao can return and win easily.
 

Ptichka

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Though I do have a question. Werner seems very critical of Oleg Vasiliev as a coach, is this warranted? I'm not terribly familiar with Vasiliev's coaching history, but Werner seems very harsh here.
Well, Vasiliev completely blew it with both Volchkova and Suguri (don't know about the others). The worst thing about Vasiliev IMHO is that he just isn't all that smart while hasa HUGE opinion of himself. When something doesn't work, he tends to blame his skaters, though he's quick to take credit for the successes. He has also said some not-too-nice things about K&T and especially their coach, which is especially inappropriate since she's been his coach as well.

What does Werner mean by skaters "showing their chocolate side?"
Their "good side".

Do you think that Werner is right that the fiure skating establishment in Russia is slowly reconstructing the old Soviet apparatus that produced so many great pairs teams in the past?
Werner left USSR back in the bad old Soviet days, and has deep disdain for the old Soviet system (as do I). I think he wants to remind his readers who may be getting nostalgic for the athletic achievements of yore that those come at a stiff price and that you can't get one without the other. Also, I bet it pains Werner to see Russia slipping politically into its pre-Democracy days. This is a comment on all that.
I hope the Russians resurrect their pairs program because the pairs competition is really lacking. I find it ironic that now Russian pairs have the same problems as American pairs in that they break up too soon instead of working through bad results.
Seriously, I don't think it's really possible. One reason USSR had such a successful program is the lack of other opportunities. An athletic career gave access to such an improvment in a quality of life that it made it worth it for young people to sacrifice their lives for even a remote chance of achieving this.

The Chinese really don't have that impressive a pairs program. They have had the same 3 pairs for many years and they don't have any new pairs in the wings. Of course, by 2014, the pairs competition may be so weak that a 39 and 35 year old Shen and Zhao can return and win easily.
ITA
 
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soogar

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Dec 18, 2003
Well, Vasiliev completely blew it with both Volchkova and Suguri (don't know about the others). The worst thing about Vasiliev IMHO is that he just isn't all that smart while hasa HUGE opinion of himself. When something doesn't work, he tends to blame his skaters, though he's quick to take credit for the successes. He has also said some not-too-nice things about K&T and especially their coach, which is especially inappropriate since she's been his coach as well.

What exactly happened with Volchkova and Suguri? Volchkova wasn't exactly the most consistent skater by the time she came to Vasiliev. I thought with Suguri he was trying to overhaul her jump technique and that didn't go too well.
 

Mafke

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Mar 22, 2004
"the foul remark of the Russian sports official Irina Rodnina which the paper “Soviet Sport” published on September 12, 2009 – “I think one could find a nice Russian girl for such a gorgeous guy as Alexander Smirnov. The choice of partner is questionable here.”"

Wow! Did she say that????. Is she always so lacking in tact??? (I'm being very restrained here). I seem to recall that that there aren't so many fond rememberances of or references to Rodnina..
 

Medusa

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"the foul remark of the Russian sports official Irina Rodnina which the paper “Soviet Sport” published on September 12, 2009 – “I think one could find a nice Russian girl for such a gorgeous guy as Alexander Smirnov. The choice of partner is questionable here.”"

Wow! Did she say that????. Is she always so lacking in tact??? (I'm being very restrained here). I seem to recall that that there aren't so many fond rememberances of or references to Rodnina..

She really did say that and I think you can find the article which someone translated back then in the archives.
 

soogar

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Dec 18, 2003
I kind of agree with Rodnina- though I'm not exactly a tactful person. No offense to Kawaguti, but how sad is it the top Russian pair consists of an "imported" skater. For a country with such a deep skating tradition, it certainly is a sign that the pairs program is remiss.

I can see how that would not sit well with Rodnina.
 

Mafke

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Mar 22, 2004
I kind of agree with Rodnina- though I'm not exactly a tactful person. No offense to Kawaguti, but how sad is it the top Russian pair consists of an "imported" skater

How can Kawaguti not take offense? She has made a _huge_ commitment to skating for Russia and deserves public respect from Rodnina. If Rodnina doesn't like the state of Russian pairs there were far more appropriate ways of expressing that without insulting a skater who's proven her dedication and commitment.

All the gold medals in the world can't buy class and I can't think of any reason to not consider Rodnina as exhibit number one.
 

FlattFan

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I kind of agree with Rodnina- though I'm not exactly a tactful person. No offense to Kawaguti, but how sad is it the top Russian pair consists of an "imported" skater. For a country with such a deep skating tradition, it certainly is a sign that the pairs program is remiss.
I can see how that would not sit well with Rodnina.

Kavaguti went to school in Russia. Got her degree in an accredited Russian university. Speaks Russian. Has a Russian citizenship.
What is not Russian about Kavaguti?
That's like saying the 50 million peoples in the US aren't Americans. Like saying how sad for the top finishing US team to "borrow" a Filipina girl to compete. That's like saying "American beat Kwan"
Oh wait, it's been said. :think:
 

soogar

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Kavaguti went to school in Russia. Got her degree in an accredited Russian university. Speaks Russian. Has a Russian citizenship.
What is not Russian about Kavaguti?
That's like saying the 50 million peoples in the US aren't Americans. Like saying how sad for the top finishing US team to "borrow" a Filipina girl to compete. That's like saying "American beat Kwan"
Oh wait, it's been said. :think:

They don't have an immigrant culture as we do in the US. I was watching pairs with a Polish friend and when S&S were introduced as a German team, he remarked that they were not Germans.


People who are from countries that are ethnically and culturally homogeneous regard outsiders as foreigners. Not that Russia is culturally homogeneous but she doesn't even have a link through one of the former Soviet republics.

If the situation were reversed and Smirnov attained Japanese citizenship (which I don't even believe he is permitted to bc of the strictness in how they treat foreigners), the Japanese would never consider him to be Japanese.

It's not correct to assume that what goes in the US is the way it is in other countries.
 

76olympics

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Mar 4, 2004
I have never cared for Rodnina, and this is another reason to cement my dislike. That was a very hurtful comment and it makes me angry when I think how sad and alone Kavaguti looked after the disappointing free skate. I am glad Werner pointed out that Rodnina was no beauty queen herself ( perky at best). Thanks as always for the translation. I think you are right. The Soviet atmosphere is gone now.
 

Moxie

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Nov 22, 2009
Kavaguti went to school in Russia. Got her degree in an accredited Russian university. Speaks Russian. Has a Russian citizenship.
What is not Russian about Kavaguti?
That's like saying the 50 million peoples in the US aren't Americans. Like saying how sad for the top finishing US team to "borrow" a Filipina girl to compete. That's like saying "American beat Kwan"
Oh wait, it's been said. :think:

Rodnina ought to keep her thoughts to herself...
And I'm not trying to defend her or anything, but I don't consider Kavaguti to be Russian, either. She said it felt weird to have to enter Japan on a Visa. And now that the Olympics are over, she's been mulling a returning to Japan.
But what Rodnina and the others are publicly saying is probably nothing compared to what Moskvina and Piseev have said to them in private. :eek:hwell:
 

bekalc

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Nov 1, 2006
They don't have an immigrant culture as we do in the US. I was watching pairs with a Polish friend and when S&S were introduced as a German team, he remarked that they were not Germans.

He absolutely is German. The man's mother was German, so he has half German blood anyways. And didn't even know his African father. Besides in Germany, I believe they do have some immigration. My brother was in military service in Germany and dated a girl there who was original from Africa but is now a German citizen. One of the reasons it didn't work out was because she didn't want to live in America, she'd miss Germany too much. But yes in European countries there is more of a homogenous type of thing. In Russia though there really are all kinds of ethnic groups anyways, but I think some of the issues with this particular team is the fact that Yuka wasn't trained in the Russian/Soviet system for most of her career. I.e that she's essentially an inport. I mean it would be one thing if Aliona who was from the Ukraine (and was essentially it seemed trained by Soviet coaches when she was younger, I believe) to be skating for Russia. But for a country with the greatest pairs skating legacy to have to import skaters its a whole different feeling (hurt pride). It would be one thing if it was a sport they didn't have this great tradition in. But for it to be pairs skating, its a whole different feeling.

I also think that K/S really didn't fit the classical Russian style in personality, and instead of working to find a style that suited her team, Moskvina tried to make them something they weren't.

However to be rude to Yuka is really not right.
 
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soogar

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Dec 18, 2003
I have never cared for Rodnina, and this is another reason to cement my dislike. That was a very hurtful comment and it makes me angry when I think how sad and alone Kavaguti looked after the disappointing free skate. I am glad Werner pointed out that Rodnina was no beauty queen herself ( perky at best). Thanks as always for the translation. I think you are right. The Soviet atmosphere is gone now.

“I think one could find a nice Russian girl for such a gorgeous guy as Alexander Smirnov. The choice of partner is questionable here.”"

Was she referring to her looks? From the translation, I got the impression that Rodnina meant that a gorgeous guy like Smirnov would not have trouble finding a nice Russian partner to skate with and that his current partner fell short. I took nice as meaning good Russian partners- as in no need to pair him with a Japanese skater when there are so many nice Russian girls to skate with. Maybe it can be meant as looks but I thought that she was referring to skating skills. Gorgeous for him could be handsome and also strong/magnificent.

Kawaguti is a very good skater- Moskvina packaged her as a Japanese Berezhnaya with the delicate haircut.

Maybe Rodnina felt that Moskvina had bypassed a lot of quality Russian girls due to her personal regard for Kawaguti. I believe that in an interview with Vasiliev, he remarked that Moskvina didn't want to work with difficult skaters in her old age and that she would rather work with Kawaguti who does as she's told.

I really don't know what the story is behind that comment. I too feel bad for Kawaguti. It's not her fault that the Russians dropped the ball on their pairs program.
 

soogar

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Dec 18, 2003
He absolutely is German. The man's mother was German, so he has half German blood anyways. And didn't even know his African father. Besides in Germany, I believe they do have some immigration.

My Polish friend just looked at their last names and was like, not German. However I don't want to sidetrack this conversation. I am not doubting Robin's heritage. The man was born and raised in Germany and has German blood. With all the immigration and intermarriage, there is a mixed generation that is now part of the cultural and ethnic landscape of Germany. My mother is German and would never accept him as German. Younger people do consider him German.

In another 20 years, Russia may experience the same shift.

Very different situation from Kawaguti who is Japanese and became a Russian to compete. However she did train fairly extensively in the Russian system- since she was 16 yrs old. Japan has no pairs program so she did learn everything from Moskvina. It should be enough of a credit to the Russian system.
 
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Mafke

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Mar 22, 2004
Just one more note: In translation at least, Rodnina's quote also hints at Soviet style arrogance in disregarding Smirnov's preferences "Who cares if you want to skate with Kavaguti, we've chosen a nice Russian girl for you, now shut up and skate."

Yeah, I might be overanalysing things a little but I don't feel like giving her the benefit of a doubt.

That said, I think of Kavaguti as a Russian citizen and not an ethnic Russian (the distinction is well known in Russia AFAIK though it applies more to the local populations than immigrants). In Polish the expression would be she's 'a Japanese woman with a Russian passport'.

I think of Szokolwy as completely German as that's were he was born and always lived (the German mother is slightly less relevant).

Finally, I detest the citizenship based Olympics, an intellectually bankrupt idea that needs to die a horrible death. I think Kavaguti should have been able to represent Russia without changing her citizenship just as she could in Euros and Worlds. It should be between her and the Russian federation.
 

Ptichka

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Mafke, good post. Yes, the "Russian" thing needs to be put into context. For example, Jewish people (like myself) always identified ourselves as "Jewish", not "Russian"; I still don't like being identified as "Russian" by Americans. In fact, when Werner says "she is in fact now a Russian", he actually uses a slightly different word. It just doesn't translate all that well - the traditional word for "Russian" is "russky"; the word that's often used now to identify with the country of Russia is "rossijskij" (this wasn't necessary in previous decades as we could always just say "Soviet").

Rodnina is just one angry lady. She's not a nice person. Interestingly, the Protopopovs say they "forgave and forgot" what skating-related people said about them after they defected; besides, they say most people, while not having apologized formally, have at least acknowledged that things have been said that shouldn't have. One exception, they say, is Rodnina. They say she's the one person they won't shake hands with when given a chance. And I think Rodnina has a special hatred for Moskvina and her international fame, respect, and success.
 
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