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Thread: Johnny Weir's SP: Not COP friendly enough?

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    Johnny Weir's SP: Not COP friendly enough?

    After Johnny Weir's scores came up yesterday, I was trying to understand why he was in 6th place. Basically,it came down to the fact that a mistake free program from him still kept him out of the top five. Was there something Johnny could have done to make himself more competitive?

    So far, the only answers that I came up with is that Johnny's step sequences, change of foot combination spin in the TES and almost everything in the PCS (transitions, skating skills, choreography) cost him a lot of points.

    So, should we draw the conclusion that Johnny's SP wasn't choreographed at a difficulty level that would a top 3 finish possible for him? Was it, as skated, too simple and not capable of scoring high on the COP? If all of that is true, why hasn't Johnny and his team come up with a more COP-friendly SP? Johnny has becoming more consistent in his jumps and it's a shame that this hard-won consistency hasn't paid off in higher placements. His hard work would have been more rewarded if his SP had more difficult elements.

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    I actually thought Johnny was over-scored with his 6th place and I had him in 8th. I know that puts me in a very small minority, but I think when you look at the top 5 and Chan and Kozuka, who are both behind him, all of them, IMO, are just all-around better skaters than Johnny, and skated well enough to place in front of him in my book. I think he's always pretty slow, his jumps are solid but low (and the flip takes off on the wrong edge, he received -2 for it), and there is just so little substance to his program besides that little burst of energy he got before the straight-line footwork. There's so much (or so much more) going on in Takahashi, Lambiel, Chan, and Kozuka's programs especially components-wise. And I know a lot of people really love and admire his style of skating and his choreography, but to me, it seems like it's the exact same year after year. I DO like his skating, although I just don't care for his general style. I remember really being excited about him in 2001 and 2002, but has he really made HUGE improvements since then? I think he should be really satisfied to make it into the final group in the free skate.

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    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Wheeler View Post
    I actually thought Johnny was over-scored with his 6th place and I had him in 8th. I know that puts me in a very small minority, but I think when you look at the top 5 and Chan and Kozuka, who are both behind him, all of them, IMO, are just all-around better skaters than Johnny, and skated well enough to place in front of him in my book. I think he's always pretty slow, his jumps are solid but low (and the flip takes off on the wrong edge, he received -2 for it), and there is just so little substance to his program besides that little burst of energy he got before the straight-line footwork. There's so much (or so much more) going on in Takahashi, Lambiel, Chan, and Kozuka's programs especially components-wise. And I know a lot of people really love and admire his style of skating and his choreography, but to me, it seems like it's the exact same year after year. I DO like his skating, although I just don't care for his general style. I remember really being excited about him in 2001 and 2002, but has he really made HUGE improvements since then? I think he should be really satisfied to make it into the final group in the free skate.
    I sadly expected Kozuka to get the shaft from the judges as he always does to my dismay, but I agree with you, I was seriously shocked to see Chan placed behind Weir, even with the mistakes Patrick made. Last season the judges were all over Chan; not so much this season. It only goes further to prove that PCS is a momentum score. Patrick has been out of competition much of the season and the one international event he skated in Canada, he was a disaster. The PCS is a consistency/momentum score, plain and simple. I hate how the judges always lowball Takahiko Kozuka! Weir is still a 6.0 skater to me and to the judges too I think. He never really adapted to COP and when he finally did go and seek David Wilson for choreography, coach Galina stripped the choreo from his programs.

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    I dont think his standing is the problem as much as the low score. I'd put him over Lambiel in standings but did he really deserve higher than 5th place?? no way IMO. Oda was much much better. His killer performance should deserve 84-85 points in my book and that's where I think the judges drop the ball with him.

    Like I said in another thread, the reason for this is that he's a victim of the "3rd skater syndrome", he and poor Kozuka
    Last edited by SamuraiKike; 02-17-2010 at 07:52 PM.

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    Third skater syndrome has nothing to do with it, really, at least in this event. Again, this is all just my own opinion, but I thought that Weir's technical score by the judges was just fine, maybe even just SLIGHTLY low, but I thought his components scores were way high, that's where my difference in placement came in.

    And I've raved about Kozuka non-stop since his program last night, but he didn't really let loose until the end and I scored him right around where he was actually scored. His basics are absolutely to die for and his program was really refreshing.

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    Rinkside
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    Also, what about Brezina? He was wonderful last night and way underscored. Why? Because he's a newbie and they aren't about to give deserving marks to somebody that isn't considered a contender. Lord have mercy if johnny would have messed up anymore than he did, he would have been crucified. I don't think the judges expected him to skate cleanly. While I can appreciate Oda's insane ability to make jumps look so effortless, I don't view him as a top skater just because I find his skating a bit premature, something I'd see on the jr ranks. But everthing I've seen in him, he's consistent I would think he'd do better than Takahashi. The way I see it, 3 out of the top 5 will have to have something go horribly wrong for johnny to grab a medal. Because the judges will continue to hold evan and plushy up and keep Johnny from getting the score he deserves. I mean I didn't expect anything else going into the olys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I sadly expected Kozuka to get the shaft from the judges as he always does to my dismay, but I agree with you, I was seriously shocked to see Chan placed behind Weir, even with the mistakes Patrick made. Last season the judges were all over Chan; not so much this season. It only goes further to prove that PCS is a momentum score. Patrick has been out of competition much of the season and the one international event he skated in Canada, he was a disaster. The PCS is a consistency/momentum score, plain and simple. I hate how the judges always lowball Takahiko Kozuka! Weir is still a 6.0 skater to me and to the judges too I think. He never really adapted to COP and when he finally did go and seek David Wilson for choreography, coach Galina stripped the choreo from his programs.
    I agree. PCS score is a joke. It's as subjective as the presentation score in the 6.0 era. The top skaters always get higher PCS than the newcomers and the ones favored at the moment always get higher scores than everyone else. Unless they make PCS score more objective, CoP will never be a fairer system than 6.0 in my opinion :sheesh:

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    What I don't understand is how Evgeny and Evan score higher in pcs when all they do is flail their arms and make funny faces. That is not worthy of olympic medal to me. Sure they can jump but this isn't a jumping competition. Johnny's program was underscored in my opinion. Chan skated worse and yet Johnny is only a point ahead of him? Also I felt that Johnny deserved to be ahead of Lambiel but boy I could watch that man spin all day. -2 was a big harsh for an edge call but if that's the way they see it then that's up to their discretion. I just don't think it's fair to hold Johnny back because he isn't viewed as a contender for a medal which is the only thing I can assume at this point. I think there could have been alot more added to his program to maximize the points but for whatever reason Galina didn't focus on that. Atleast he's skating consistently (knock on wood) and if he does so in the lp, especially if he does the quad which he said he'd do, then I think he might be a real threat for that bronze medal. I highly doubt every single one of the top 6 men will skate cleanly, which would leave the door open for johnny, and probably chan barring that they skate clean. I doubt Chan though, I think the pressure is getting to him, I don't expect to see him place higher than 5th. I really hope Johnny skates a program that he will be proud of and not have any regrets.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moscow View Post
    What I don't understand is how Evgeny and Evan score higher in pcs when all they do is flail their arms and make funny faces. That is not worthy of olympic medal to me. Sure they can jump but this isn't a jumping competition. Johnny's program was underscored in my opinion. Chan skated worse and yet Johnny is only a point ahead of him? Also I felt that Johnny deserved to be ahead of Lambiel but boy I could watch that man spin all day. -2 was a big harsh for an edge call but if that's the way they see it then that's up to their discretion. I just don't think it's fair to hold Johnny back because he isn't viewed as a contender for a medal which is the only thing I can assume at this point. I think there could have been alot more added to his program to maximize the points but for whatever reason Galina didn't focus on that. Atleast he's skating consistently (knock on wood) and if he does so in the lp, especially if he does the quad which he said he'd do, then I think he might be a real threat for that bronze medal. I highly doubt every single one of the top 6 men will skate cleanly, which would leave the door open for johnny, and probably chan barring that they skate clean. I doubt Chan though, I think the pressure is getting to him, I don't expect to see him place higher than 5th. I really hope Johnny skates a program that he will be proud of and not have any regrets.
    Agree! Especially the flailing arms part. Johnny's skating, posture, carriage, elegance is far superior to most of the men. I could be happy just watching him do crossovers. But for this competition, I am pleased that he had a good skate.
    Last edited by isk82; 02-17-2010 at 10:55 PM.

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    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    You know, I've never thought of Johnny as a skater that wasn't able to adapt to COP. I remember his programs for the 2004-2005 season (Rondo Capriccioso and Otonal) were very CoP friendly, and that season he was winning everything. Also this years programs were designed by David Wilson, who does great programs for CoP. If indeed his coach changed the choreos, and thus eliminated whatever transitions Wilson had come up with (I'm guessing, I don't know if indeed this is what happened), then they only hurt Johnny. And Petrenko, being a technical controler, could have addressed that, don't you think?

  11. #11
    Go marry the quad if you love it so much DesertRoad's Avatar
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    If you look at Johnny's TES, it's perfectly competitive with the top guys. Where he can improve slightly, although this is by no means fatal, is he could up the levels of his spins so they ALL reach level 4. Where Johnny needs to improve greatly is executing the planned elements. He cannot afford to pop any jumps, which he is given to do. It's against his nature, but he's better off rotating the jumps and splatting on them than popping them. And if he could fix his lip, even better.

    As for his PCS, that's where he's suffering in particular these days, and has lots of room for improvement. An obvious area he can improve is throwing in more transitions. In fact, his SP had more transitions at the beginning of the season, but he stripped it away to improve his consistency. Weir can also try to skate even faster, which helps improve the SS score. As for the rest of the PCS, I think it'd really help him if he had better music and better programs. His current SP and FS have mediocre, even awkward music. The choreography bound to that is never going to be very good. Remember The Swan? That was beautiful music which inspired beautiful choreography which inspired massive PCS. Find better music, and the PCS will improve.
    Last edited by DesertRoad; 02-17-2010 at 11:58 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hikaru View Post
    You know, I've never thought of Johnny as a skater that wasn't able to adapt to COP. I remember his programs for the 2004-2005 season (Rondo Capriccioso and Otonal) were very CoP friendly, and that season he was winning everything. Also this years programs were designed by David Wilson, who does great programs for CoP. If indeed his coach changed the choreos, and thus eliminated whatever transitions Wilson had come up with (I'm guessing, I don't know if indeed this is what happened), then they only hurt Johnny. And Petrenko, being a technical controler, could have addressed that, don't you think?
    I get the impression that no one goes against Galina. Some of the choreography that Wilson did for Johnny included butt rolls, lol...I don't know how else to say it and Galina ix-nayed that. I think Galina is too old school BUT I also think she has been able to get Johnny to stay fit and focused. As for Victor...well he is Galina's son-in-law. He's probably scared of her too.

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