Johnny Weir's SP: Not COP friendly enough?

[krenseby]

After Johnny Weir's scores came up yesterday, I was trying to understand why he was in 6th place. Basically,it came down to the fact that a mistake free program from him still kept him out of the top five. Was there something Johnny could have done to make himself more competitive?

So far, the only answers that I came up with is that Johnny's step sequences, change of foot combination spin in the TES and almost everything in the PCS (transitions, skating skills, choreography) cost him a lot of points.

So, should we draw the conclusion that Johnny's SP wasn't choreographed at a difficulty level that would a top 3 finish possible for him? Was it, as skated, too simple and not capable of scoring high on the COP? If all of that is true, why hasn't Johnny and his team come up with a more COP-friendly SP? Johnny has becoming more consistent in his jumps and it's a shame that this hard-won consistency hasn't paid off in higher placements. His hard work would have been more rewarded if his SP had more difficult elements.

[Tony Wheeler]

I actually thought Johnny was over-scored with his 6th place and I had him in 8th. I know that puts me in a very small minority, but I think when you look at the top 5 and Chan and Kozuka, who are both behind him, all of them, IMO, are just all-around better skaters than Johnny, and skated well enough to place in front of him in my book. I think he's always pretty slow, his jumps are solid but low (and the flip takes off on the wrong edge, he received -2 for it), and there is just so little substance to his program besides that little burst of energy he got before the straight-line footwork. There's so much (or so much more) going on in Takahashi, Lambiel, Chan, and Kozuka's programs especially components-wise. And I know a lot of people really love and admire his style of skating and his choreography, but to me, it seems like it's the exact same year after year. I DO like his skating, although I just don't care for his general style. I remember really being excited about him in 2001 and 2002, but has he really made HUGE improvements since then? I think he should be really satisfied to make it into the final group in the free skate.

[museksk8r]

I actually thought Johnny was over-scored with his 6th place and I had him in 8th. I know that puts me in a very small minority, but I think when you look at the top 5 and Chan and Kozuka, who are both behind him, all of them, IMO, are just all-around better skaters than Johnny, and skated well enough to place in front of him in my book. I think he's always pretty slow, his jumps are solid but low (and the flip takes off on the wrong edge, he received -2 for it), and there is just so little substance to his program besides that little burst of energy he got before the straight-line footwork. There's so much (or so much more) going on in Takahashi, Lambiel, Chan, and Kozuka's programs especially components-wise. And I know a lot of people really love and admire his style of skating and his choreography, but to me, it seems like it's the exact same year after year. I DO like his skating, although I just don't care for his general style. I remember really being excited about him in 2001 and 2002, but has he really made HUGE improvements since then? I think he should be really satisfied to make it into the final group in the free skate.

I sadly expected Kozuka to get the shaft from the judges as he always does to my dismay, but I agree with you, I was seriously shocked to see Chan placed behind Weir, even with the mistakes Patrick made. Last season the judges were all over Chan; not so much this season. It only goes further to prove that PCS is a momentum score. Patrick has been out of competition much of the season and the one international event he skated in Canada, he was a disaster. The PCS is a consistency/momentum score, plain and simple. I hate how the judges always lowball Takahiko Kozuka! Weir is still a 6.0 skater to me and to the judges too I think. He never really adapted to COP and when he finally did go and seek David Wilson for choreography, coach Galina stripped the choreo from his programs.

[moscow]

What I don't understand is how Evgeny and Evan score higher in pcs when all they do is flail their arms and make funny faces. That is not worthy of olympic medal to me. Sure they can jump but this isn't a jumping competition. Johnny's program was underscored in my opinion. Chan skated worse and yet Johnny is only a point ahead of him? Also I felt that Johnny deserved to be ahead of Lambiel but boy I could watch that man spin all day. -2 was a big harsh for an edge call but if that's the way they see it then that's up to their discretion. I just don't think it's fair to hold Johnny back because he isn't viewed as a contender for a medal which is the only thing I can assume at this point. I think there could have been alot more added to his program to maximize the points but for whatever reason Galina didn't focus on that. Atleast he's skating consistently (knock on wood) and if he does so in the lp, especially if he does the quad which he said he'd do, then I think he might be a real threat for that bronze medal. I highly doubt every single one of the top 6 men will skate cleanly, which would leave the door open for johnny, and probably chan barring that they skate clean. I doubt Chan though, I think the pressure is getting to him, I don't expect to see him place higher than 5th. I really hope Johnny skates a program that he will be proud of and not have any regrets.

[SamuraiKike]

I dont think his standing is the problem as much as the low score. I'd put him over Lambiel in standings but did he really deserve higher than 5th place?? no way IMO. Oda was much much better. His killer performance should deserve 84-85 points in my book and that's where I think the judges drop the ball with him.

Like I said in another thread, the reason for this is that he's a victim of the "3rd skater syndrome", he and poor Kozuka

[miki88]

I sadly expected Kozuka to get the shaft from the judges as he always does to my dismay, but I agree with you, I was seriously shocked to see Chan placed behind Weir, even with the mistakes Patrick made. Last season the judges were all over Chan; not so much this season. It only goes further to prove that PCS is a momentum score. Patrick has been out of competition much of the season and the one international event he skated in Canada, he was a disaster. The PCS is a consistency/momentum score, plain and simple. I hate how the judges always lowball Takahiko Kozuka! Weir is still a 6.0 skater to me and to the judges too I think. He never really adapted to COP and when he finally did go and seek David Wilson for choreography, coach Galina stripped the choreo from his programs.

I agree. PCS score is a joke. It's as subjective as the presentation score in the 6.0 era. The top skaters always get higher PCS than the newcomers and the ones favored at the moment always get higher scores than everyone else. Unless they make PCS score more objective, CoP will never be a fairer system than 6.0 in my opinion :sheesh:

[Tony Wheeler]

Third skater syndrome has nothing to do with it, really, at least in this event. Again, this is all just my own opinion, but I thought that Weir's technical score by the judges was just fine, maybe even just SLIGHTLY low, but I thought his components scores were way high, that's where my difference in placement came in.

And I've raved about Kozuka non-stop since his program last night, but he didn't really let loose until the end and I scored him right around where he was actually scored. His basics are absolutely to die for and his program was really refreshing.

[moscow]

Also, what about Brezina? He was wonderful last night and way underscored. Why? Because he's a newbie and they aren't about to give deserving marks to somebody that isn't considered a contender. Lord have mercy if johnny would have messed up anymore than he did, he would have been crucified. I don't think the judges expected him to skate cleanly. While I can appreciate Oda's insane ability to make jumps look so effortless, I don't view him as a top skater just because I find his skating a bit premature, something I'd see on the jr ranks. But everthing I've seen in him, he's consistent I would think he'd do better than Takahashi. The way I see it, 3 out of the top 5 will have to have something go horribly wrong for johnny to grab a medal. Because the judges will continue to hold evan and plushy up and keep Johnny from getting the score he deserves. I mean I didn't expect anything else going into the olys.

[Tony Wheeler]

Brezina, I really like him, but I was judging as the competition went on and posting the scores to my Facebook so the very few people I'm friends with that were following it could comment.. and I had the exact same total that he received. His spins were a very, very big weakness but he's definitely well on his way to becoming a big contender with the consistency he's shown so far this year.

[museksk8r]

I expect Sochi to be Kozuka vs. Brezina vs. Rippon vs. Amodio. Hopefully, Russia's Grigoriev will also come into his own and pose a real challenge too!

[enlight78]

Weir is has no one but himself to blame; the judges aren't holding him down; his edge call gave him a -2 when he could get plus +2 that is a net loss of 4pts; he also had a lack of transitions with no quad to make up for it ; So if Weir would have really skated clean he proably would have scored around 86-87

Kozuka two-footed his axel and had a iffy triple/triple; he could have proably scored 84 if clean

Brezina is still juniorish; i was surprise he got higher Pc's than Armodio and Ten( who have better presentation) I would have actually scored him lower about 76-77; He also bad about missing levels on his spins

[rallycairn]

Re: Johnny, an ice dancer whose knowledge far, far exceeds mine and whose opinion I greatly respect points out things about Johnny's programs that are telling to me, such as that his step sequences are "deceptive," appearing much easier than they really are and things like that. And I know, who cares about an ice dancer I won't name -- but I say that because I think ice dancers as a group are very aware of things like edgework and footwork. I think Johnny is underscored on the PCS, actually, and I think he should get in general better GOE on moves like his gorgeous axel, which would up his TES, obviously. Agree that he's more of a 6.0 skater, though.

Specific to this event, in the Men's SP thread someone made an insightful post, I thought, the gist of which was that Lambiel's impression (not with his spins but basically otherwise) came from the waist up, not from waist down, yet he still got these great scores. Compared to that, I'd be even more inclined to say Weir was underscored here. But I freely admit to being a big Johnny fan, so no doubt I'm biased.

I really, really hope Johnny continues to enjoy skating at this event, as he appeared to enjoy his SP.

[kyla2]

Johnny was underscored in the PCS. I agree with Moscow who states that other skaters flail about and the judges give them high PCS scores. Ridiculous.

[Bennett]

Yeah, I also thought that his PCS was low.

[DesertRoad]

I've been making a lot of animated gifs of skaters lately, and I like to crop down the footage so that only the skater is shown. That has turned out to be particularly tough with Weir. He, more than any other skater, makes full use of his limbs and extensions. Everything is elegantly extended whenever possible, especially the legs. This makes all his moves more difficult and higher in quality. It should be rewarded in several categories of the PCS, according to how the ISU defines them. That they aren't could be a result of Krick's DVD, and/or judges being asinine.