Johnny Weir's SP: Not COP friendly enough? | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Johnny Weir's SP: Not COP friendly enough?

Hikaru

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
You know, I've never thought of Johnny as a skater that wasn't able to adapt to COP. I remember his programs for the 2004-2005 season (Rondo Capriccioso and Otonal) were very CoP friendly, and that season he was winning everything. Also this years programs were designed by David Wilson, who does great programs for CoP. If indeed his coach changed the choreos, and thus eliminated whatever transitions Wilson had come up with (I'm guessing, I don't know if indeed this is what happened), then they only hurt Johnny. And Petrenko, being a technical controler, could have addressed that, don't you think?
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
If you look at Johnny's TES, it's perfectly competitive with the top guys. Where he can improve slightly, although this is by no means fatal, is he could up the levels of his spins so they ALL reach level 4. Where Johnny needs to improve greatly is executing the planned elements. He cannot afford to pop any jumps, which he is given to do. It's against his nature, but he's better off rotating the jumps and splatting on them than popping them. And if he could fix his lip, even better.

As for his PCS, that's where he's suffering in particular these days, and has lots of room for improvement. An obvious area he can improve is throwing in more transitions. In fact, his SP had more transitions at the beginning of the season, but he stripped it away to improve his consistency. Weir can also try to skate even faster, which helps improve the SS score. As for the rest of the PCS, I think it'd really help him if he had better music and better programs. His current SP and FS have mediocre, even awkward music. The choreography bound to that is never going to be very good. Remember The Swan? That was beautiful music which inspired beautiful choreography which inspired massive PCS. Find better music, and the PCS will improve.
 
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Justafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
You know, I've never thought of Johnny as a skater that wasn't able to adapt to COP. I remember his programs for the 2004-2005 season (Rondo Capriccioso and Otonal) were very CoP friendly, and that season he was winning everything. Also this years programs were designed by David Wilson, who does great programs for CoP. If indeed his coach changed the choreos, and thus eliminated whatever transitions Wilson had come up with (I'm guessing, I don't know if indeed this is what happened), then they only hurt Johnny. And Petrenko, being a technical controler, could have addressed that, don't you think?

I get the impression that no one goes against Galina. Some of the choreography that Wilson did for Johnny included butt rolls, lol...I don't know how else to say it and Galina ix-nayed that. I think Galina is too old school BUT I also think she has been able to get Johnny to stay fit and focused. As for Victor...well he is Galina's son-in-law. He's probably scared of her too.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
I thought Johnny's SP had more fire in Spokane. It really didn't feel like he was skating all out until his footwork section, and even then it wasn't as big and joyus as Nationals.
 

Justafan

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 18, 2005
I thought Johnny's SP had more fire in Spokane. It really didn't feel like he was skating all out until his footwork section, and even then it wasn't as big and joyus as Nationals.

I do think he skated a bit more cautiously but I'm sure nerves played some part...I'm sure ALL the guys had nerves last night...obviously some were taken down by them. (Poor Jeremy and Brian :( ...I felt badly for both of them.)
 

skatemom1122

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 22, 2009
The fact of the matter is that Weir lost on technical elements. He lost 2 points for the wrong edge on the flip, and probably would have gained at least 1 point in GOE had he not taken off the wrong edge. This results in a net loss of at least 3 points, and it also cost him a spot in the top 4! Weir has no one to blame but himself. The "e" rule has been in effect for several seasons now. He has had ample time to correct this issue. Miki Ando was another skater with an egregious incorrect take-off edge on her triple flip, but it has since been fixed. He should try a triple loop instead in the short program. The base value is lower, but he wouldn't have all of the negative GOE.
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
I get the impression that no one goes against Galina. Some of the choreography that Wilson did for Johnny included butt rolls, lol...I don't know how else to say it and Galina ix-nayed that. I think Galina is too old school BUT I also think she has been able to get Johnny to stay fit and focused. As for Victor...well he is Galina's son-in-law. He's probably scared of her too.

lol.
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
An 83 does not sound off-mark to me. His PB was a 84.60 at the GPF this December, and since he got an edge call on the flip and both the flip and the 3/3 were done very slowly and without his usual flow, i don't find the score off mark. What surprised a lot of people was how far down in the standings he was because of the huge scores some of the other guys were getting. Two judges gave him a 5.50 and a 6.75 for transitions, compared with 6.00 at the lowest for Plushenko (which is rather insane, but lets stay out of that whole drama). His spins and steps got levels 3 and 4, and + GOEs so I don't think he is losing many points there. He skating pretty much his best, and was scored fairly IMO.
 

Lilyvalley

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Johnny is the 3 number of the USA team now. That is the only reason why he has got such low marks for his perfect SP (inspite the wrong edge).
 

Bennett

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 20, 2007
An 83 does not sound off-mark to me. His PB was a 84.60 at the GPF this December, and since he got an edge call on the flip and both the flip and the 3/3 were done very slowly and without his usual flow, i don't find the score off mark. What surprised a lot of people was how far down in the standings he was because of the huge scores some of the other guys were getting. Two judges gave him a 5.50 and a 6.75 for transitions, compared with 6.00 at the lowest for Plushenko (which is rather insane, but lets stay out of that whole drama). His spins and steps got levels 3 and 4, and + GOEs so I don't think he is losing many points there. He skating pretty much his best, and was scored fairly IMO.

I feel that the some of the other guys may be overscored. Like two seasons ago, the really good scores you could get with triple programs were like 82. They do the same elements but get higher scores.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I've liked his skating since he skated Seniors in 2002, His Flow and posture are second to none. He also has good jump and spin technique. Everything is there for racking up points. I think he does not get the GoEs he deserves. Of course, his androgenous style may be the blame from some judges. Points for the elements, but lacking on GoEs. Not sure of that as I have not looked at the protocols. There are so many quad jumpers tonight that if 3 or 4 land them with a decent program, he wont, imo, make the podium. I believe he must rely on a splatfest by his top competitors. In today's system, not only transitions are a must, but Quads for the men are too.

It can be a fab night. Will it?
 

mskater93

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 22, 2005
Johnny is slower than the top 4 in speed by quite a bit and this is reflected in SS, IN, PE, CH with corridor marking. When his flow out of the Lutz is not good (like in the SP), he squeaks the 3T on the end of it and it doesn't deserve bigger marks.
 

ManyCairns

Medalist
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Country
United-States
An 83 does not sound off-mark to me. His PB was a 84.60 at the GPF this December, and since he got an edge call on the flip and both the flip and the 3/3 were done very slowly and without his usual flow, i don't find the score off mark. What surprised a lot of people was how far down in the standings he was because of the huge scores some of the other guys were getting. Two judges gave him a 5.50 and a 6.75 for transitions, compared with 6.00 at the lowest for Plushenko (which is rather insane, but lets stay out of that whole drama). His spins and steps got levels 3 and 4, and + GOEs so I don't think he is losing many points there. He skating pretty much his best, and was scored fairly IMO.

I feel that the some of the other guys may be overscored. Like two seasons ago, the really good scores you could get with triple programs were like 82. They do the same elements but get higher scores.

Well, ultimately even if it's the case that it is other guys getting OVERmarked while Johnny does not get the same overmarking, the end result is the same, of course, and regardless should be the same/fair for everyone. But I still do think he should get more PCS and better GOE for the things he does do well.

But whatever his scoring I hope he has a good LP that he can enjoy and be proud of. I mean really, I think it would be hard to deny that he has persevered through A LOT, such as the egregious "tie" that lost him the National title in 2008 and several other major ups and downs in his skating career. Yet he has continued on and still manages to get decent results internationally -- maybe no big wins but he refuses to let himself get written off completely. But I digress, as I'm apt to do!
 

Lilyvalley

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I don`t see that Johnny is slower than other top skaters. Especcialy Abbott skates much more slower in both his programs.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Johnny is the 3 number of the USA team now. That is the only reason why he has got such low marks for his perfect SP (inspite the wrong edge).


then it's not the ONLY reason. he made a mistake...

and the #3 skater is still in contention to get on the podium... anything can happen tonight, it's not like he's last place, he's in the final flight, and with the CoP it's far more possible for him to make a huge leap up... IF he gives it everything he's got and then some.

in the words of coach Herb Brooks: "Play your game!"
 

Lilyvalley

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Johnny of cause can skate FS perfect but the judjes will give him the lower marks than to the 1 or 2 numbers of the teams (USA or the other).
This is the rule of the game which is named now the FS competitions.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I feel that the some of the other guys may be overscored. Like two seasons ago, the really good scores you could get with triple programs were like 82. They do the same elements but get higher scores.

Yeah, EVERYONE is overscored now. I was looking at old scores from the 2006 Olympics, out of curiosity, and no one got over 79 except for Plushenko in the SP. Lambiel was the closest follower, with 79, and I think there were even some people in the top 10 with scores in the 60s (I don't have it right in front of me right now, and I'm too lazy to go find it again. :p)
 

Lilyvalley

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
In the 2006 Olympiics Johnny was the closest follower of Plushenkoin SP with 80. Lambiel was the third.
 

Hikaru

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 23, 2004
I get the impression that no one goes against Galina. Some of the choreography that Wilson did for Johnny included butt rolls, lol...I don't know how else to say it and Galina ix-nayed that. I think Galina is too old school BUT I also think she has been able to get Johnny to stay fit and focused. As for Victor...well he is Galina's son-in-law. He's probably scared of her too.

HAHAHAHA man I never thought she could be that frightening... althought I saw a few days ago a chapter of Johnny's show and she did look scary
 

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
In the 2006 Olympiics Johnny was the closest follower of Plushenkoin SP with 80. Lambiel was the third.

So in reality Johnny is right where he wants to be. Instead of asking why Johnny was underscored, we have to ask why the others were overscored.
 
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