Funeral for quads | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Funeral for quads

icebeauty

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
funeral of the quads...probably, seeing as no one landed a "textbook" quad

but last night was pretty darn close to the funeral of the triple axel too. It's the men's event and there were more bad 3A's than there were good ones...

looking forward to Worlds in a few weeks. Would like to see Johnny put together 2 good programs again so he can hopefully get on the podium and end it all with a medal. I would also like to see Jeremy do 2 clean programs b/c then people might finally get the message that 2 solid programs with the technical difficulty and other skating elements will be "unbeatable"
 

Alatariel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Plushenko isn't a complete skater either by this criteria. Some of his landings were wonky and his footwork wasn't at a high enough level. His performance did not go with a music. That was a tango? I didn't know that until I read it online. Evan worked a system and performed beautifully. I will remember him and not as a mediocre skater.

You know, Plushenko thinks the quad is almighty. Ok, fine. Where were his second and third quads? You want the envelope pushed, push it.

Is anyone actually calling Plushenko a complete skater? I wrote that somewhere ... meh, must be old age, I can't seem to recall calling Plushenko an all round skater. On the other hand, we have dozens and dozens of anguished cries of - but Lysacek is a complete skater! Funny how you actually can't refute any of the things people have posted about his skating so the automatic answer is - but Plushenko ... blah blah blah. Glad that you will remember Evan, what can I say, some people and mediocrity just go hand in hand.
 
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silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
funeral of the quads...probably, seeing as no one landed a "textbook" quad

but last night was pretty darn close to the funeral of the triple axel too. It's the men's event and there were more bad 3A's than there were good ones...

looking forward to Worlds in a few weeks. Would like to see Johnny put together 2 good programs again so he can hopefully get on the podium and end it all with a medal. I would also like to see Jeremy do 2 clean programs b/c then people might finally get the message that 2 solid programs with the technical difficulty and other skating elements will be "unbeatable"

Actually, Tomas landed a very nice quad. I'm not sure if it was textbook, but it was solid. It was his first jump and a good jump before he bombed the rest of his program.
 

Raatkirani

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 22, 2006
It's a sad day when we say goodbye to the quad. You were challenging and will be missed by the true athletes out there. Now I'll have to find a way to not vomit while watching people perform those ludicrous 3-2-2 combos. What a joke that is.
 

millie

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2004
Good bye quad!!!!! Finally they can join men and ladies' figure skating into one and call it figure skating.
 

Face2Mac

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
They're not dead... they're still basically required for those who can't do anything but jump! It's one of many ways to get points. When Dai gets a consistent quad (which I fully believe he'll keep working towards) then everyone else damn well better look out cause dude will be untouchable.

I totally agree. I believe it says that if you want to do the quad and be mediocre in everything else, fine. You'll win and you'll lose. But if you find the quad, jumps along side footwork, transitions, musicality and persona, watch out.
 

Tesla

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 28, 2005
Is anyone actually calling Plushenko a complete skater? I wrote that somewhere ... meh, must be old age, I can't seem to recall calling Plushenko an all round skater. On the other hand, we have dozens and dozens of anguished cries of - but Lysacek is a complete skater! Funny how you actually can't refute any of the things people have posted about his skating so the automatic answer is - but Plushenko ... blah blah blah. Glad that you will remember Evan, what can I say, some people and mediocrity just go hand in hand.

Ok, so what's wrong with Evan winning if he and Plushenko are pretty even? And I happen to think Evan is a complete skater. I was just pointing out by your criteria, that Plushenko isn't a complete skater either. I think Evan is fantastic with the footwork and has good spins and good jumps. I think he is one of the best at footwork and thought is program worked very well with the music. I think Evan is more complete skater than Plushenko.
 

Alatariel

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 15, 2010
Ok, so what's wrong with Evan winning if he and Plushenko are pretty even? And I happen to think Evan is a complete skater. I was just pointing out by your criteria, that Plushenko isn't a complete skater either. I think Evan is fantastic with the footwork and has good spins and good jumps. I think he is one of the best at footwork and thought is program worked very well with the music. I think Evan is more complete skater than Plushenko.

A very long time ago - read this morning Euro time - I wrote the following - Plushenko lost on his own accord (I am not saying scores were correct, I am saying he should have known this was going to happen; it was obvious to absolutely everyone). He knew what was required and he didn't do it. I've been saying since the SPs, if he wants to win under these conditions he needs to be super clear and have two quads in the LP. He didn't have them because, and this is just my personal opinion, he can't do them any more. Why, the lack of training, old age, I don't know but I think he would have put it there just to thumb everyone's noses at it if he could.

I already told you what I think of Lysacek.

Who should have won? Well we would have to go and see the SP scores first, then how would that changed thing affect the LPs etc, etc, etc. It's all hypothetical now and I have no idea how that would have unfolded.

Just because of the fact that Plushenko was stupid, this entire season and not just last night, and based on what we saw, I would have loved to see Dai as OGM. I doubt we ever will, which is a shame but well...
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
If Plushenko won, I'd be having a funeral for level 4 footwork. Well, ok, I'm not that much of a drama queen.
 

formersk8ter

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 3, 2009
Yes, that's why Timothy Goebel, who landed 3 quads in his program, is a World and Olympic champion! Oh wait, he isn't.

At least he was beaten by skaters who had quads.

I love how so many dismiss the quad. Any idea of just how difficult it is to do one???

Don't get me wrong, I think Evan deserved to win over Plushy. But I am disappointed that techincal content has taken a step backwards. I mean, when Sonia Henie (or whoever) did the first women's axel, would we imagine that fifteen years later other women wouldn't be able to do it? Uh no, because that never happened.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I love how so many dismiss the quad. Any idea of just how difficult it is to do one???

Well Lambiel can do a quad and not a triple axel, Verner can do a quad but also has some issues with the triple axel and not popping his regular triples, and that Swedish guy and a handful of tier two skaters can do a quad but their other skating skills aren't great so...I don't know. I think the 3a is harder for taller skaters whereas a quad your height doesn't really matter. A lot of the smaller men have good triple axels I've noticed, whereas the quad men are for the most part average height or a bit tall.
 

gfskater

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
Why is it just about one jump?

What about al the others.
Ev did a three jump combo, Yv did all 2 jump combos.
Ev did a 3Lz, Yv did a 3S.
Ev did 5 difficult jumps after the halfway mark, Yv did 3 easy jumps after the halfway mark.
Ev did all level 4 spins, Yv did a level three.
 
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DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
I am disappointed that techincal content has taken a step backwards. I mean, when Sonia Henie (or whoever) did the first women's axel, would we imagine that fifteen years later other women wouldn't be able to do it? Uh no, because that never happened.

But it did. Can modern skaters do figures like Henie and her ilk did? Hell no, that's no longer even in the sport. Does that mean the sport has gone backwards? Only if you think making a perfect figure 8 on the ice is the pinnacle of skating. Modern skating requires excellence and intricacy in every move, every turn of the blade and every position of the body. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to rotate all your jumps, while having most of them be in the second half of the program, while putting in transitions, while doing high level footwork and spins, while performing well and interpreting the nuances of the music and its rhythm?

I'm not fond of many parts of the COP: the massive point penalty for under-rotation, the prioritizing of complexity over beauty and quality, the widening gap in elite skating between TES and PCS... But to say skating has regressed? Please. It's vastly more difficult than it was before the COP. And the difficulty increases as skaters adapt more and more to every part of the COP, forcing each other to be equally well rounded.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Well Lambiel can do a quad and not a triple axel, Verner can do a quad but also has some issues with the triple axel and not popping his regular triples, and that Swedish guy and a handful of tier two skaters can do a quad but their other skating skills aren't great so...I don't know. I think the 3a is harder for taller skaters whereas a quad your height doesn't really matter. A lot of the smaller men have good triple axels I've noticed, whereas the quad men are for the most part average height or a bit tall.

Now, that's a very interesting observation that never occurred to me before, the connection between height and quads. Though Lysacek is unusually tall for a skater--over six feet, I think--every rule has an exception.

As for the "death" of quads, I think the real answer is that there are only a few skaters in history who are true giants and who exemplify the best in the sport, and we may just be in a fallow period. Yes, Plushenko is an amazing jumper--all the Mishin skaters have gorgeous technique, including Kulik and Yagudin. But Plushy is not really strong in other areas. Yagudin had it all, Browning certainly had it all. So did Hamilton and Boitano, and John Curry for his era. These men are all great technicians and also great performers. I think the skater who currently fills that bill is Takahashi when he's healthy. (More about that later.) The fact is, it's hard to find an artist who's also a technician and also (this is very important) mentally tough. Generally you get two out of three at best. (Both Lysacek and Plushy are mentally as tough as they come.) Stojko had jumps and toughness, but judges at the Olympics at least chose not to honor his particular brand of performance skills--not classical enough, I guess.

The problem now, with all the technical advances and especially the quad, is that often the best guys are chewed up quickly by injuries. You know that Daisuke could have done that quad before his knee gave out. Alexei Urmanov and Yagudin both lost years of skating because of serious injuries. So the giants are fewer and farther between.

Don't mourn the death of the quad yet, though. In women's skating, does anyone remember the fuss about triple-triples during the Kwan/Slutskaya era? Slutskaya and others who could do triple-triples consistently were considered pathfinders. Except that in 1992, I believe Yamaguchi had a triple-triple already, and did it at the Olympics. Then it kind of bowed out for awhile. Skating isn't a constant progression. It's made up of the best skills of whoever happens to be skating at the time. Don't sweat it. Nothing's dying. Enjoy the show that's here, not the one you wish was here. We're still luckier than fans of the school figures era. Remember when Trixi Schuba won the Olympics in 1972? She beat out two great skaters, Karen Magnussen and Janet Lynn...because she had such a high score in her school figures that no one else could catch up with her. And though I never saw her free program, I gather it was lackluster at best. Yet there she is in the record books with her gold. At least now, when a good skater without a quad wins, you can see what the judges are making a fuss about, whether footwork or transitions or spins. Agree or disagree, you can still see the reason for the skater's high scores.
 

sarukou

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
If Plushenko won, I'd be having a funeral for level 4 footwork. Well, ok, I'm not that much of a drama queen.

How many times has Evan received level four footwork this year?? Suddenly at the Olympic games, he becomes this magnificent all-rounded skater?
Good job Lysacek. We now have the technical difficulty of 20+ years ago. Bravo. I can only hope Mao Asada delivers, and shows the flaw in C.O.P. -- where the women can match the men in jumps. And frankly, I'd rather watch the Ladies event now -- they are much more artistic and pretty to watch than the men anyways.
 

sarukou

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Why is it just about one jump?
Ev did 5 difficult jumps after the halfway mark, Yv did 3 easy jumps after the halfway mark.

You mean that difficult double axel? That insane triple-double-double combo? Give me a break.
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
How many times has Evan received level four footwork this year?? Suddenly at the Olympic games, he becomes this magnificent all-rounded skater?
Good job Lysacek. We now have the technical difficulty of 20+ years ago. Bravo. I can only hope Mao Asada delivers, and shows the flaw in C.O.P. -- where the women can match the men in jumps. And frankly, I'd rather watch the Ladies event now -- they are much more artistic and pretty to watch than the men anyways.

Er, that's because Lysacek actually improved his program as the season went along, unlike the silver medalist, whose skating got worse and worse. By your ridiculous logic, why even have the skaters compete? Just have them compete once in the season and repeat the same score for all the other events.

And this is symptomatic of the Plushenko apologists. They don't see the competition that happened, they just base their judgment and the results they want on vague recollections of past skates. Newsflash: Plushenko was never that good a skater even in his prime, and age has caught up with him. Most of us moved on, Plushenko hasn't.
 
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sarukou

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 15, 2008
Er, that's because Lysacek actually improved his program as the season went along...

Can you tell me exactly WHERE he improved his program? Specifically the footwork - what was the difference? Did he add another three-turn perhaps? Did he exchange an inside bracket for a choctaw?
You have no idea. He simply "improved". He improved so much that the difference was clear... or vaguely clear... or something.
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Can you tell me exactly WHERE he improved his program? Specifically the footwork - what was the difference? Did he add another three-turn perhaps? Did he exchange an inside bracket for a choctaw?
You have no idea. He simply "improved". He improved so much that the difference was clear... or vaguely clear... or something.

You're the one who has no idea. You're the one who posited that the tech specialist cheated and awarded him level 4 footwork when he didn't deserve it. The burden of proof is on you to dig up the requirements and specifications and prove your accusation. Until you do, I'll trust the people with the credentials, not some dilettente with an axe to grind.
 
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