Funeral for quads | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Funeral for quads

gfskater

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 4, 2009
I didn't mention Evan.

Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you did. I was trying to make the point that Evan won because of his jumps. His jumps in total (there were 8) were worth more points even though Evgeni did a quad.
 
Last edited:

Kinga

Medalist
Joined
Feb 15, 2008
You know, Plushenko thinks the quad is almighty. Ok, fine. Where were his second and third quads? You want the envelope pushed, push it.
Exactly what I thought. Exactly the same that happened to Joubert last season and in 2008. If you have weak points in other areas make up for it with 2 quads! (just like Stephane tried)

Can modern skaters do figures like Henie and her ilk did? Hell no, that's no longer even in the sport. Does that mean the sport has gone backwards? Only if you think making a perfect figure 8 on the ice is the pinnacle of skating. Modern skating requires excellence and intricacy in every move, every turn of the blade and every position of the body. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to rotate all your jumps, while having most of them be in the second half of the program, while putting in transitions, while doing high level footwork and spins, while performing well and interpreting the nuances of the music and its rhythm?

I'm not fond of many parts of the COP: the massive point penalty for under-rotation, the prioritizing of complexity over beauty and quality, the widening gap in elite skating between TES and PCS... But to say skating has regressed? Please. It's vastly more difficult than it was before the COP. And the difficulty increases as skaters adapt more and more to every part of the COP, forcing each other to be equally well rounded.


I agree. People emphasize how difficult the quad is, but it is exactly the same with difficult footwork, transitions etc. The requirement of the system changed, and amen to that. It annoys me to no end what Stojko wrote today - that doing nice spins and footwork is 'just' and it no taking risk. Yes, you take a risk when you stuff your program with other difficult element.
I have seen very few good quads recently - and the reason is probably that the system is different than in 2002. We cannot compare quad 2002 era with current state of figure skating. And honestly, I prefer a nice program without a quad, than a beautiful quad (Ponsero, Verner) followed by meltdown.

As for the "death" of quads, I think the real answer is that there are only a few skaters in history who are true giants and who exemplify the best in the sport, and we may just be in a fallow period. Yes, Plushenko is an amazing jumper--all the Mishin skaters have gorgeous technique, including Kulik and Yagudin. But Plushy is not really strong in other areas. Yagudin had it all, Browning certainly had it all. So did Hamilton and Boitano, and John Curry for his era. These men are all great technicians and also great performers. I think the skater who currently fills that bill is Takahashi when he's healthy. (More about that later.) The fact is, it's hard to find an artist who's also a technician and also (this is very important) mentally tough. Generally you get two out of three at best. (Both Lysacek and Plushy are mentally as tough as they come.) Stojko had jumps and toughness, but judges at the Olympics at least chose not to honor his particular brand of performance skills--not classical enough, I guess.

The problem now, with all the technical advances and especially the quad, is that often the best guys are chewed up quickly by injuries. You know that Daisuke could have done that quad before his knee gave out. Alexei Urmanov and Yagudin both lost years of skating because of serious injuries. So the giants are fewer and farther between.

Don't mourn the death of the quad yet, though. In women's skating, does anyone remember the fuss about triple-triples during the Kwan/Slutskaya era? Slutskaya and others who could do triple-triples consistently were considered pathfinders. Except that in 1992, I believe Yamaguchi had a triple-triple already, and did it at the Olympics. Then it kind of bowed out for awhile. Skating isn't a constant progression. It's made up of the best skills of whoever happens to be skating at the time. Don't sweat it. Nothing's dying. Enjoy the show that's here, not the one you wish was here. We're still luckier than fans of the school figures era. Remember when Trixi Schuba won the Olympics in 1972? She beat out two great skaters, Karen Magnussen and Janet Lynn...because she had such a high score in her school figures that no one else could catch up with her. And though I never saw her free program, I gather it was lackluster at best. Yet there she is in the record books with her gold. At least now, when a good skater without a quad wins, you can see what the judges are making a fuss about, whether footwork or transitions or spins. Agree or disagree, you can still see the reason for the skater's high scores.
What a well written post (all-rounded :) )! I really enjoyed reading it.

Just curious, did you hold a service for the ladies triple axel after Harding and Ito left competative skating? Things seemed to be headed in that direction back then, but until recently no one really had one for years. Michelle and Irina were tops for years without it. Different skaters have different strengths in different eras. The only thing that should be dead is thinking there is only one formula that will win. This is a sport for individuals. If you have a quad -good for you but that alone doesn't make you a cinch for gold. Sit down, study the CoP against you own strengths and weaknesses and find what works. Everyone else did. Plushy just thought he was invincible and didn't need to work the system.
Another good post.
 
Last edited:

Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
I wonder if ISU will increase the value of the quad again after all this. But even that won't really help. The risk is missing it, for which you get pretty much 0 points. Nobody can land them all the time (except maybe Plushy).
 

watchvancouver

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Most of my collegues believe it's ridiculous men's figure skating is now back to triple era. No wonder figure skating is becoming more and more only for women spectators.
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Most of my collegues believe it's ridiculous men's figure skating is now back to triple era. No wonder figure skating is becoming more and more only for women spectators.

Thank you for pointing out that women spectators do not like quads and that our standards are so very low.

Perhaps I shall begin to hate them based on your assessment.

And perhaps Miki Ando shouldn't practice one because she hates watching herself do them soooo much.
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Most of my collegues believe it's ridiculous men's figure skating is now back to triple era. No wonder figure skating is becoming more and more only for women spectators.

Ooh, who are your colleagues? They sound very powerful and influential, tell us more about them if you don't mind.
 

Tigger

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Alright, so am I the only one who thought Evan won fairly and that almost every one of Plushenko's jumps looked awkward and labored, with scary air positions and scratchy landings?

Nope, you're not the only one. The Screeches of the Joy let loose in this room last night were proof of that. :biggrin:

Evan won because he had better GOE, spins, footwork, etc. I don't see why him not doing a quad and winning is so controversial.

Because certain people can't seem to handle the fact this sport is Figure Skating and not Jumping On Ice. There's more to skating than just being able to spin four times in the air, wiggling your hips and blowing kisses to the Judges.

Mao had a faceplant in her FS the year she was world champion, and Alissa landed three triples in her FS the year she won nationals - those were MUCH more controversial victories than Evan's here IMO and people accepted the results with much less grumbling...clearly it is not all about jumps, example, Lepisto. How many times has Yuna popped her loop or sal and still won? There was some controversial scoring last night, but not for Evan and Plushy. Saying a guy can't win without a quad is like saying a lady can't win without a 3-3....as far as I know, Yuna and Rachael are the only two ladies to consistently land a 3-3 this season, and Rachael didn't even make the GPF.

And we've all seen what's happened to Mao's skating w/her preoccupation w/the Triple Axel. It's great to have it and land it, but when she misses it...The program suffers and it's a shame because I think that Mao is one of the ones who could do both. Have strong techincial skills along w/the artistic side of things.

As for last night...That wasn't the death of the Sport and those who think so, I feel sorry for. Last night the Sport WON, because it's not all about one jump yet and I hope we never end up on that road ever. When we do, *then* we can say skating has died. Until then, might I point a certain Quad King to an actual Choreographer and a Spin coach, because he needs them!!
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
^^ glad someone is on the same page :agree:
Preoccupation with one jump is bad news...cough...Joubert...cough....Verner. I mean seriously.
 

watchvancouver

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 16, 2010
Thank you for pointing out that women spectators do not like quads and that our standards are so very low.

.

It's just a fact that most of the figure skating spectators these days are women. I attended a GP event last year, believe me, while there's a big line out side the ladies' washroom, the men's washroom was nearly empty. I felt a bit embarrassed to be one of the few male spectators by the rink. If women continue to prefer Chan-like skaters to win other more athletic skaters by doing 2A, it's time to move figure skating out of Olympics Games.
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
It's just a fact that most of the figure skating spectators these days are women. I attended a GP event last year, believe me, while there's a big line out side the ladies' washroom, the men's washroom was nearly empty. I felt a bit embarrassed to be one of the few male spectators by the rink. If women continue to prefer Chan-like skaters to win other more athletic skaters by doing 2A, it's time to move figure skating out of Olympics Games.

1. Then either bring a friend or stay home. Whatever floats your pretty boat.
2. Is that an ultimatum?
3. Who the heck said that the majority of women like Chan-like skaters?
 

DesertRoad

Final Flight
Joined
Oct 31, 2005
Are we returning the Olympics to its Greek roots of excluding women?

Chan was credited with three 3axels at the Olympics, he only landed one double axel, you liar.

And again, who are your colleagues? You can tell me, I promise I won't think worse of them for associating with a sexist liar.
 
Last edited:

Eevun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 19, 2008
Maybe they could start doing 8s and other figures again, like in the ooooold time. I mean, it's called figure skating.
(I dont even know if Im serious)

I feel splited about the quad question. I need more time to think about it. All of you have a point.
The only thing I felt last night was the fs is not fair at all. I felt sick when I thought about the mens result. Fs are not compareble to any other sport in Olympics. Judged sport is so hard, never fair (I will not drag the robbed Stephane and Johnny and the overscored Pstrick up, I promise), especially not with different judges. The skaters can never be judged by robots and human judges can never be 100% equal even with a judge book. Sad but true. I enjoyed this final very much, I really did, but from now on I think Im not gonna care that much about competitions anymore. I love fs cos its such a beautiful sport to watch and its so sad may be destroyed by being judged. But on the other hand the competition is so exciting, we love the thrill, the heart ache and the joy. This is so hard...
 

BigJohn

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
It's just a fact that most of the figure skating spectators these days are women. I attended a GP event last year, believe me, while there's a big line out side the ladies' washroom, the men's washroom was nearly empty. I felt a bit embarrassed to be one of the few male spectators by the rink..

I remember the good old days when mostly men attended figure skating competitions. Me and the guys from the factory filled up the arena and enjoyed the loud WWE style atmosphere. Jolly good times, but there was so much drunken fights and hooliganism.
 

aftertherain

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I remember the good old days when mostly men attended figure skating competitions. Me and the guys from the factory filled up the arena and enjoyed the loud WWE style atmosphere. Jolly good times, but there was so much drunken fights and hooliganism.

Sounds like you have some interesting stories. Do tell!
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
Quads are high risk and the skaters can get almost as many points with combination jumps, or by jumping in the second half of program.
If they fall on a quad, they get hardly any points at all. I agree that quads should be rewarded with higher scores than they are because not many people can do them and because they are so risky. I admire the few guys last night who did try or land the quads, such as Kozuka, Takahashi and Plushenko. However, one quad combination does not win a gold medal. The new COP system takes into account every single little element and Lysaceck and his coach have been very smart to train in this system and maximize his points.

In the early 2000s, Timothy Goebel was the quad king, but his programs lacked artistry so that is why he did not win back then, and that is why Evgeny lost out now. Evgeny should have made his comeback 2 years ago so that he could become familiar with how the COP system has changed.

A similar thing is going on in the ladies program. Mao Asada plans to do triple axels to score higher points to overcome lower scores she receives in other elements. Kim Yu Na has the whole package, and doesn't need to do the triple axel to win. Evan Lysaceck has the whole package under the COP, so he doesn't need the quad to win.

AND.. finally, I think Evan would have been happy with the silver medal. I don't think he really thought he could beat Plushenko.

But Evan and Plushenko had the same PCS, so Evan did not win based on his "artistry" (which I think he is lacking too~~). He won because Plushenko's layout wasn't CoP savvy enough and his jumps were shaky. Daisuke is the one who has the whole package not Evan. IMO. I also think what's hurting Mao is that her program is not CoP savvy enough, because is a well-rounded skater.
 
Last edited:

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
The quad is something special. Period. While skaters should not be penalized for foregoing it, as not everyone can have it (that's what makes it special to start with), skaters should be rewarded for successfully landing it. The quad has been devalued by CoP. There should be more points given for a successful one, as incentive to try, just as there should be more points given to Mao whenever she nails that 3A since such skaters are pushing the envelope.

I think we're jumping to conclusions though. The quad is not dead. Like Yamaguchi said in a NYT article, skating goes through cycles. The current crop of men can win without quads, as they learn to milk the system and no top-tier skater can pull it all together in addition to a quad. We're in a period of adjustment (to CoP). At the moment, it's about getting Lv4s and boosting that PCS, but once that's figured out (and scores become more or less even among the top competitors), I have a feeling more men will look for the quad to edge out wins ;). Or if a single skater had Takhashi's fire + Lambiel's spins + Plushy's jumps + Kozuka's skating skills (now wouldn't that be something to behold), I bet more skaters would flock toward the quad in order to stay competitive. The truth of the matter, though, is that none of the top competitors was the whole package, so Lysacek wins by virtue of his well-rounded, albeit quadless, performance. If Plushy had Lambiel's spins, he would've won hands-down, but the truth is, Plushy doesn't. I love Plushy, but Lysacek won this one fair and quare by the CoP system.

All we can do is wait for another Battle of the Quads a la 2002 SLC and for skaters like Yagudin, Plushenko (in his prime) and Takahashi+quad to emerge (and I do say the 2nd group last night looked promising). The quad is not dead. There's no need for a funeral ;) It will come back.

As for the value of the quad.. Well, I think this article puts it best:

But one casualty in raising the technical precision of the sport [by CoP] is the spontaneity that makes sports exciting. Athletes at this level live on the edge of control and chaos, and it's the collective wow of moments when they butt themselves up against that line that take our breath away and keep bringing us back to watch. "It's important for any sport to continue to raise the bar and move forward," Paul Wylie, a 1992 silver medalist, told me after the men's short programs. "I have to admit, as a performer who did two triple Axels in my program in Albertville, I am surprised that more guys aren't doing the quad."

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1966649,00.html#ixzz0g2QydpOz
 
Last edited:
Top