At least he was beaten by skaters who had quads.Originally Posted by Tesla
I love how so many dismiss the quad. Any idea of just how difficult it is to do one???
Don't get me wrong, I think Evan deserved to win over Plushy. But I am disappointed that techincal content has taken a step backwards. I mean, when Sonia Henie (or whoever) did the first women's axel, would we imagine that fifteen years later other women wouldn't be able to do it? Uh no, because that never happened.
Well Lambiel can do a quad and not a triple axel, Verner can do a quad but also has some issues with the triple axel and not popping his regular triples, and that Swedish guy and a handful of tier two skaters can do a quad but their other skating skills aren't great so...I don't know. I think the 3a is harder for taller skaters whereas a quad your height doesn't really matter. A lot of the smaller men have good triple axels I've noticed, whereas the quad men are for the most part average height or a bit tall.
Why is it just about one jump?
What about al the others.
Ev did a three jump combo, Yv did all 2 jump combos.
Ev did a 3Lz, Yv did a 3S.
Ev did 5 difficult jumps after the halfway mark, Yv did 3 easy jumps after the halfway mark.
Ev did all level 4 spins, Yv did a level three.
Last edited by gfskater; 02-19-2010 at 03:27 PM.
But it did. Can modern skaters do figures like Henie and her ilk did? Hell no, that's no longer even in the sport. Does that mean the sport has gone backwards? Only if you think making a perfect figure 8 on the ice is the pinnacle of skating. Modern skating requires excellence and intricacy in every move, every turn of the blade and every position of the body. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to rotate all your jumps, while having most of them be in the second half of the program, while putting in transitions, while doing high level footwork and spins, while performing well and interpreting the nuances of the music and its rhythm?
I'm not fond of many parts of the COP: the massive point penalty for under-rotation, the prioritizing of complexity over beauty and quality, the widening gap in elite skating between TES and PCS... But to say skating has regressed? Please. It's vastly more difficult than it was before the COP. And the difficulty increases as skaters adapt more and more to every part of the COP, forcing each other to be equally well rounded.
Now, that's a very interesting observation that never occurred to me before, the connection between height and quads. Though Lysacek is unusually tall for a skater--over six feet, I think--every rule has an exception.
As for the "death" of quads, I think the real answer is that there are only a few skaters in history who are true giants and who exemplify the best in the sport, and we may just be in a fallow period. Yes, Plushenko is an amazing jumper--all the Mishin skaters have gorgeous technique, including Kulik and Yagudin. But Plushy is not really strong in other areas. Yagudin had it all, Browning certainly had it all. So did Hamilton and Boitano, and John Curry for his era. These men are all great technicians and also great performers. I think the skater who currently fills that bill is Takahashi when he's healthy. (More about that later.) The fact is, it's hard to find an artist who's also a technician and also (this is very important) mentally tough. Generally you get two out of three at best. (Both Lysacek and Plushy are mentally as tough as they come.) Stojko had jumps and toughness, but judges at the Olympics at least chose not to honor his particular brand of performance skills--not classical enough, I guess.
The problem now, with all the technical advances and especially the quad, is that often the best guys are chewed up quickly by injuries. You know that Daisuke could have done that quad before his knee gave out. Alexei Urmanov and Yagudin both lost years of skating because of serious injuries. So the giants are fewer and farther between.
Don't mourn the death of the quad yet, though. In women's skating, does anyone remember the fuss about triple-triples during the Kwan/Slutskaya era? Slutskaya and others who could do triple-triples consistently were considered pathfinders. Except that in 1992, I believe Yamaguchi had a triple-triple already, and did it at the Olympics. Then it kind of bowed out for awhile. Skating isn't a constant progression. It's made up of the best skills of whoever happens to be skating at the time. Don't sweat it. Nothing's dying. Enjoy the show that's here, not the one you wish was here. We're still luckier than fans of the school figures era. Remember when Trixi Schuba won the Olympics in 1972? She beat out two great skaters, Karen Magnussen and Janet Lynn...because she had such a high score in her school figures that no one else could catch up with her. And though I never saw her free program, I gather it was lackluster at best. Yet there she is in the record books with her gold. At least now, when a good skater without a quad wins, you can see what the judges are making a fuss about, whether footwork or transitions or spins. Agree or disagree, you can still see the reason for the skater's high scores.
How many times has Evan received level four footwork this year?? Suddenly at the Olympic games, he becomes this magnificent all-rounded skater?
Good job Lysacek. We now have the technical difficulty of 20+ years ago. Bravo. I can only hope Mao Asada delivers, and shows the flaw in C.O.P. -- where the women can match the men in jumps. And frankly, I'd rather watch the Ladies event now -- they are much more artistic and pretty to watch than the men anyways.
You mean that difficult double axel? That insane triple-double-double combo? Give me a break.
Er, that's because Lysacek actually improved his program as the season went along, unlike the silver medalist, whose skating got worse and worse. By your ridiculous logic, why even have the skaters compete? Just have them compete once in the season and repeat the same score for all the other events.
And this is symptomatic of the Plushenko apologists. They don't see the competition that happened, they just base their judgment and the results they want on vague recollections of past skates. Newsflash: Plushenko was never that good a skater even in his prime, and age has caught up with him. Most of us moved on, Plushenko hasn't.
Last edited by DesertRoad; 02-19-2010 at 03:35 PM.
Can you tell me exactly WHERE he improved his program? Specifically the footwork - what was the difference? Did he add another three-turn perhaps? Did he exchange an inside bracket for a choctaw?
You have no idea. He simply "improved". He improved so much that the difference was clear... or vaguely clear... or something.
You're the one who has no idea. You're the one who posited that the tech specialist cheated and awarded him level 4 footwork when he didn't deserve it. The burden of proof is on you to dig up the requirements and specifications and prove your accusation. Until you do, I'll trust the people with the credentials, not some dilettente with an axe to grind.
For Heaven's sake, he's FS was not perfect. Consider the fact how long he has been gone. And then he has to hear youngsters like Chan blabbering about him being an "old man" on skates who should possible be fit for retirement home if anything. Well this "old scrooge" still has the possibility of improving himself if he would only not settle for his reputation and in fact his statement about men's figure skating standing still does have its point. First everybody is complaining fs is too artistic, then they are complaining it's too technical... If you want to consider it a respectable sport competition then you have to insure the development of sides that cannot be JUDGED subjectively. Artistry is necessary, something which Plushenko should definitely pay attention to if he wants to continue competing, but it is not all. It doesn't seem like sport anymore, more like a form of ballet suited for stage.
He is rightfully pissed off but hopefully, just hopefully he doesn't continue with his comments on the judging for long, unless the smear campaign from NA continues (I mean honestly, isn't he allowed to say anything after the bs that surrounded him before and during the competition? Especially if he is in principal right.).
I presume this topic is going to continue for a long time...
I'll be the first to throw dirt on it... it has taken so much away from skating
Quads are high risk and the skaters can get almost as many points with combination jumps, or by jumping in the second half of program.
If they fall on a quad, they get hardly any points at all. I agree that quads should be rewarded with higher scores than they are because not many people can do them and because they are so risky. I admire the few guys last night who did try or land the quads, such as Kozuka, Takahashi and Plushenko. However, one quad combination does not win a gold medal. The new COP system takes into account every single little element and Lysaceck and his coach have been very smart to train in this system and maximize his points.
In the early 2000s, Timothy Goebel was the quad king, but his programs lacked artistry so that is why he did not win back then, and that is why Evgeny lost out now. Evgeny should have made his comeback 2 years ago so that he could become familiar with how the COP system has changed.
A similar thing is going on in the ladies program. Mao Asada plans to do triple axels to score higher points to overcome lower scores she receives in other elements. Kim Yu Na has the whole package, and doesn't need to do the triple axel to win. Evan Lysaceck has the whole package under the COP, so he doesn't need the quad to win.
AND.. finally, I think Evan would have been happy with the silver medal. I don't think he really thought he could beat Plushenko.
Alright, so am I the only one who thought Evan won fairly and that almost every one of Plushenko's jumps looked awkward and labored, with scary air positions and scratchy landings? Evan won because he had better GOE, spins, footwork, etc. I don't see why him not doing a quad and winning is so controversial. Mao had a faceplant in her FS the year she was world champion, and Alissa landed three triples in her FS the year she won nationals - those were MUCH more controversial victories than Evan's here IMO and people accepted the results with much less grumbling...clearly it is not all about jumps, example, Lepisto. How many times has Yuna popped her loop or sal and still won? There was some controversial scoring last night, but not for Evan and Plushy. Saying a guy can't win without a quad is like saying a lady can't win without a 3-3....as far as I know, Yuna and Rachael are the only two ladies to consistently land a 3-3 this season, and Rachael didn't even make the GPF.
I agree with you, people fail to remember the fact just about all of Plushenkos jump were shaky
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