Funeral for quads

Smuusik · Feb 19, 2010

For Heaven's sake, he's FS was not perfect. Consider the fact how long he has been gone. And then he has to hear youngsters like Chan blabbering about him being an "old man" on skates who should possible be fit for retirement home if anything. Well this "old scrooge" still has the possibility of improving himself if he would only not settle for his reputation and in fact his statement about men's figure skating standing still does have its point. First everybody is complaining fs is too artistic, then they are complaining it's too technical... If you want to consider it a respectable sport competition then you have to insure the development of sides that cannot be JUDGED subjectively. Artistry is necessary, something which Plushenko should definitely pay attention to if he wants to continue competing, but it is not all. It doesn't seem like sport anymore, more like a form of ballet suited for stage.

He is rightfully pissed off but hopefully, just hopefully he doesn't continue with his comments on the judging for long, unless the smear campaign from NA continues (I mean honestly, isn't he allowed to say anything after the bs that surrounded him before and during the competition? Especially if he is in principal right.).

I presume this topic is going to continue for a long time...

UM84 · Feb 19, 2010

I'll be the first to throw dirt on it... it has taken so much away from skating

Maribelle · Feb 19, 2010

Quads are high risk and the skaters can get almost as many points with combination jumps, or by jumping in the second half of program.
If they fall on a quad, they get hardly any points at all. I agree that quads should be rewarded with higher scores than they are because not many people can do them and because they are so risky. I admire the few guys last night who did try or land the quads, such as Kozuka, Takahashi and Plushenko. However, one quad combination does not win a gold medal. The new COP system takes into account every single little element and Lysaceck and his coach have been very smart to train in this system and maximize his points.

In the early 2000s, Timothy Goebel was the quad king, but his programs lacked artistry so that is why he did not win back then, and that is why Evgeny lost out now. Evgeny should have made his comeback 2 years ago so that he could become familiar with how the COP system has changed.

A similar thing is going on in the ladies program. Mao Asada plans to do triple axels to score higher points to overcome lower scores she receives in other elements. Kim Yu Na has the whole package, and doesn't need to do the triple axel to win. Evan Lysaceck has the whole package under the COP, so he doesn't need the quad to win.

AND.. finally, I think Evan would have been happy with the silver medal. I don't think he really thought he could beat Plushenko.

silverlake22 · Feb 19, 2010

Alright, so am I the only one who thought Evan won fairly and that almost every one of Plushenko's jumps looked awkward and labored, with scary air positions and scratchy landings? Evan won because he had better GOE, spins, footwork, etc. I don't see why him not doing a quad and winning is so controversial. Mao had a faceplant in her FS the year she was world champion, and Alissa landed three triples in her FS the year she won nationals - those were MUCH more controversial victories than Evan's here IMO and people accepted the results with much less grumbling...clearly it is not all about jumps, example, Lepisto. How many times has Yuna popped her loop or sal and still won? There was some controversial scoring last night, but not for Evan and Plushy. Saying a guy can't win without a quad is like saying a lady can't win without a 3-3....as far as I know, Yuna and Rachael are the only two ladies to consistently land a 3-3 this season, and Rachael didn't even make the GPF.

UM84 · Feb 19, 2010

silverlake22 said:
Alright, so am I the only one who thought Evan won fairly and that almost every one of Plushenko's jumps looked awkward and labored, with scary air positions and scratchy landings? Evan won because he had better GOE, spins, footwork, etc. I don't see why him not doing a quad and winning is so controversial. Mao had a faceplant in her FS the year she was world champion, and Alissa landed three triples in her FS the year she won nationals - those were MUCH more controversial victories than Evan's here IMO and people accepted the results with much less grumbling...clearly it is not all about jumps, example, Lepisto. How many times has Yuna popped her loop or sal and still won? There was some controversial scoring last night, but not for Evan and Plushy. Saying a guy can't win without a quad is like saying a lady can't win without a 3-3....as far as I know, Yuna and Rachael are the only two ladies to consistently land a 3-3 this season, and Rachael didn't even make the GPF.

I agree with you, people fail to remember the fact just about all of Plushenkos jump were shaky

CzarinaAnya · Feb 19, 2010

Quads are not dead, they just aren't the heavier side of the scale anymore. There's more a required equality between athleticism & artistry. Which is the way it was always meant to be, but hadn't been for a while.

Not saying CoP is perfect. It's got a lot of glitches to work out.

bladesoflori · Feb 19, 2010

Just curious, did you hold a service for the ladies triple axel after Harding and Ito left competative skating? Things seemed to be headed in that direction back then, but until recently no one really had one for years. Michelle and Irina were tops for years without it. Different skaters have different strengths in different eras. The only thing that should be dead is thinking there is only one formula that will win. This is a sport for individuals. If you have a quad -good for you but that alone doesn't make you a cinch for gold. Sit down, study the CoP against you own strengths and weaknesses and find what works. Everyone else did. Plushy just thought he was invincible and didn't need to work the system.

nastasi1212 · Feb 19, 2010

DesertRoad said:
Newsflash: Plushenko was never that good a skater even in his prime, and age has caught up with him. Most of us moved on, Plushenko hasn't.

You must be living in another planet...

aftertherain · Feb 19, 2010

Yes. Goodbye quads, maybe I'll see you guys again at Worlds in a month.

This thread is so dramatic.

Sincerely,
Apparent Evil American who, along with the entire population of North America, designed the CoP system

BigJohn · Feb 19, 2010

Alatariel said:
Yes, we are all dumb idiots so what can you expect?

For once, I agree.

jennylovskt · Feb 19, 2010

Tesla said:
If Jeremy Abbott can hold his nerves, he can do it at Worlds. He has the spins, footwork, and quad, but he has to put it all together on the big stage.

Now we have had two times quadless World champions and a quadless, artistically below averaged Olympic champion. Why unearth Jeremy has to take the risk to do that quad?! He can just forget about it and do a perfect 8 triple skating, he'll be a World champion next.

What I want is a quad or two blended in a perfect artistry, complicated transition, and high level footwork. What I want is a perfection. Jeremy Abbott could give that satisfactory to me. But with the way CoP judging, I could see less and less skaters taking that risk. Why should they?! CoP has really killed figure skating. Part of me is dead. The rest of me is still struggling to hold on.

Good-bye, quad!

Good-bye, my beloved men's skating!

Welcome to boy's or ladies' world. If I want to watch ice dance or beauty pageant, there are different disciplines and places to go.

Thank you so much ISU! I really appreciate that you have me waked up and go to find some other interests that I can pursue.

gfskater · Feb 19, 2010

sarukou said:
You mean that difficult double axel? That insane triple-double-double combo? Give me a break.

OK, a 2A is not easy nor is a triple double. I am just saying the Lysacek did a triple-double-double which is worth more points.

It is really just simple arithmetic. If you add up the base values of each skaters jumps, Lysacek's are worth 5 more points then Plushenko's 58.23 vs 53.33. You can't blame the judges because they gave Lysacek two neg GOEs and Plushenko only one. The starting values of PLushenko's jumps in total are lower.

They gave both skaters the exact same PCS score of 82.80. I think Lysacek's should have been higher than Plushenko's.

Maribelle · Feb 19, 2010

I totally agree!

aftertherain said:
Yes. Goodbye quads, maybe I'll see you guys again at Worlds in a month.

This thread is so dramatic.

Sincerely,
Apparent Evil American who, along with the entire population of North America, designed the CoP system

The COP was a result of the Russian collusion with the French judges, so take that Plushenko and your coaches!

gfskater · Feb 19, 2010

CzarinaAnya said:
Quads are not dead, they just aren't the heavier side of the scale anymore. There's more a required equality between athleticism & artistry. Which is the way it was always meant to be, but hadn't been for a while.

Not saying CoP is perfect. It's got a lot of glitches to work out.

Artistry is not why Evan won. Both skaters had the exact same PCS 82.80 !

The base value of Evan's jumps were higher. There were 8 jumping passes, let me repeat EIGHT JUMPING PASSES Three of them were combos. Add up the base values and you will see that Evan's total was worth 5 more points without any judging changes.

shadymc · Feb 19, 2010

What I want is a quad or two blended in a perfect artistry, complicated transition, and high level footwork.

You already had it. It was called Alexi Yagudin and we haven't seen the likes of him since.

silverlake22 · Feb 19, 2010

shadymc said:
You already had it. It was called Alexi Yagudin and we haven't seen the likes of him since.

Um, Takahiko and Brezina, give them a year or two and they will deliver just that. Brezina was landing gorgeous quads in practice the other day. Plus Joubert kind of fit that description before his meltdown here.

BigJohn · Feb 19, 2010

gfskater said:
Artistry is not why Evan won. Both skaters had the exact same PCS 82.80 !

If there is a controversy, that's it.

CzarinaAnya · Feb 19, 2010

gfskater said:
Artistry is not why Evan won. Both skaters had the exact same PCS 82.80 !

The base value of Evan's jumps were higher. There were 8 jumping passes, let me repeat EIGHT JUMPING PASSES Three of them were combos. Add up the base values and you will see that Evan's total was worth 5 more points without any judging changes.

I didn't mention Evan.

CzarinaAnya · Feb 19, 2010

shadymc said:
You already had it. It was called Alexi Yagudin and we haven't seen the likes of him since.

amen!

aftertherain · Feb 19, 2010

shadymc said:
You already had it. It was called Alexi Yagudin and we haven't seen the likes of him since.

Wasn't he planning to though? I think he had an injury or something that prevented him from coming back, right?

Funeral for quads

Smuusik

UM84

Maribelle

silverlake22

UM84

CzarinaAnya

bladesoflori

nastasi1212

aftertherain

BigJohn

jennylovskt

gfskater

Maribelle

gfskater

shadymc

silverlake22

BigJohn

CzarinaAnya

CzarinaAnya

aftertherain

Similar threads

Connect with us