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Thread: Funeral for quads

  1. #61
    Custom Title Jhar55's Avatar
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    I think the quad is over rated, just saying...

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by CzarinaAnya View Post
    I didn't mention Evan.
    Sorry, I did not mean to imply that you did. I was trying to make the point that Evan won because of his jumps. His jumps in total (there were 8) were worth more points even though Evgeni did a quad.
    Last edited by gfskater; 02-19-2010 at 06:52 PM.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jhar55 View Post
    I think the quad is over rated, just saying...
    You and me both, I think it is sad the skating world has become so obssesed with this jump

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tesla View Post

    You know, Plushenko thinks the quad is almighty. Ok, fine. Where were his second and third quads? You want the envelope pushed, push it.
    Exactly what I thought. Exactly the same that happened to Joubert last season and in 2008. If you have weak points in other areas make up for it with 2 quads! (just like Stephane tried)

    Quote Originally Posted by DesertRoad View Post
    Can modern skaters do figures like Henie and her ilk did? Hell no, that's no longer even in the sport. Does that mean the sport has gone backwards? Only if you think making a perfect figure 8 on the ice is the pinnacle of skating. Modern skating requires excellence and intricacy in every move, every turn of the blade and every position of the body. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to rotate all your jumps, while having most of them be in the second half of the program, while putting in transitions, while doing high level footwork and spins, while performing well and interpreting the nuances of the music and its rhythm?

    I'm not fond of many parts of the COP: the massive point penalty for under-rotation, the prioritizing of complexity over beauty and quality, the widening gap in elite skating between TES and PCS... But to say skating has regressed? Please. It's vastly more difficult than it was before the COP. And the difficulty increases as skaters adapt more and more to every part of the COP, forcing each other to be equally well rounded.

    I agree. People emphasize how difficult the quad is, but it is exactly the same with difficult footwork, transitions etc. The requirement of the system changed, and amen to that. It annoys me to no end what Stojko wrote today - that doing nice spins and footwork is 'just' and it no taking risk. Yes, you take a risk when you stuff your program with other difficult element.
    I have seen very few good quads recently - and the reason is probably that the system is different than in 2002. We cannot compare quad 2002 era with current state of figure skating. And honestly, I prefer a nice program without a quad, than a beautiful quad (Ponsero, Verner) followed by meltdown.

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post

    As for the "death" of quads, I think the real answer is that there are only a few skaters in history who are true giants and who exemplify the best in the sport, and we may just be in a fallow period. Yes, Plushenko is an amazing jumper--all the Mishin skaters have gorgeous technique, including Kulik and Yagudin. But Plushy is not really strong in other areas. Yagudin had it all, Browning certainly had it all. So did Hamilton and Boitano, and John Curry for his era. These men are all great technicians and also great performers. I think the skater who currently fills that bill is Takahashi when he's healthy. (More about that later.) The fact is, it's hard to find an artist who's also a technician and also (this is very important) mentally tough. Generally you get two out of three at best. (Both Lysacek and Plushy are mentally as tough as they come.) Stojko had jumps and toughness, but judges at the Olympics at least chose not to honor his particular brand of performance skills--not classical enough, I guess.

    The problem now, with all the technical advances and especially the quad, is that often the best guys are chewed up quickly by injuries. You know that Daisuke could have done that quad before his knee gave out. Alexei Urmanov and Yagudin both lost years of skating because of serious injuries. So the giants are fewer and farther between.

    Don't mourn the death of the quad yet, though. In women's skating, does anyone remember the fuss about triple-triples during the Kwan/Slutskaya era? Slutskaya and others who could do triple-triples consistently were considered pathfinders. Except that in 1992, I believe Yamaguchi had a triple-triple already, and did it at the Olympics. Then it kind of bowed out for awhile. Skating isn't a constant progression. It's made up of the best skills of whoever happens to be skating at the time. Don't sweat it. Nothing's dying. Enjoy the show that's here, not the one you wish was here. We're still luckier than fans of the school figures era. Remember when Trixi Schuba won the Olympics in 1972? She beat out two great skaters, Karen Magnussen and Janet Lynn...because she had such a high score in her school figures that no one else could catch up with her. And though I never saw her free program, I gather it was lackluster at best. Yet there she is in the record books with her gold. At least now, when a good skater without a quad wins, you can see what the judges are making a fuss about, whether footwork or transitions or spins. Agree or disagree, you can still see the reason for the skater's high scores.
    What a well written post (all-rounded )! I really enjoyed reading it.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladesoflori View Post
    Just curious, did you hold a service for the ladies triple axel after Harding and Ito left competative skating? Things seemed to be headed in that direction back then, but until recently no one really had one for years. Michelle and Irina were tops for years without it. Different skaters have different strengths in different eras. The only thing that should be dead is thinking there is only one formula that will win. This is a sport for individuals. If you have a quad -good for you but that alone doesn't make you a cinch for gold. Sit down, study the CoP against you own strengths and weaknesses and find what works. Everyone else did. Plushy just thought he was invincible and didn't need to work the system.
    Another good post.
    Last edited by Kinga; 02-19-2010 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #65
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    I wonder if ISU will increase the value of the quad again after all this. But even that won't really help. The risk is missing it, for which you get pretty much 0 points. Nobody can land them all the time (except maybe Plushy).

  6. #66
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    Most of my collegues believe it's ridiculous men's figure skating is now back to triple era. No wonder figure skating is becoming more and more only for women spectators.

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    Quote Originally Posted by watchvancouver View Post
    Most of my collegues believe it's ridiculous men's figure skating is now back to triple era. No wonder figure skating is becoming more and more only for women spectators.
    Why should we give any crap what your colleagues believe?

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchvancouver View Post
    Most of my collegues believe it's ridiculous men's figure skating is now back to triple era. No wonder figure skating is becoming more and more only for women spectators.
    Thank you for pointing out that women spectators do not like quads and that our standards are so very low.

    Perhaps I shall begin to hate them based on your assessment.

    And perhaps Miki Ando shouldn't practice one because she hates watching herself do them soooo much.

  9. #69
    Go marry the quad if you love it so much DesertRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchvancouver View Post
    Most of my collegues believe it's ridiculous men's figure skating is now back to triple era. No wonder figure skating is becoming more and more only for women spectators.
    Ooh, who are your colleagues? They sound very powerful and influential, tell us more about them if you don't mind.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Alright, so am I the only one who thought Evan won fairly and that almost every one of Plushenko's jumps looked awkward and labored, with scary air positions and scratchy landings?
    Nope, you're not the only one. The Screeches of the Joy let loose in this room last night were proof of that.

    Evan won because he had better GOE, spins, footwork, etc. I don't see why him not doing a quad and winning is so controversial.
    Because certain people can't seem to handle the fact this sport is Figure Skating and not Jumping On Ice. There's more to skating than just being able to spin four times in the air, wiggling your hips and blowing kisses to the Judges.

    Mao had a faceplant in her FS the year she was world champion, and Alissa landed three triples in her FS the year she won nationals - those were MUCH more controversial victories than Evan's here IMO and people accepted the results with much less grumbling...clearly it is not all about jumps, example, Lepisto. How many times has Yuna popped her loop or sal and still won? There was some controversial scoring last night, but not for Evan and Plushy. Saying a guy can't win without a quad is like saying a lady can't win without a 3-3....as far as I know, Yuna and Rachael are the only two ladies to consistently land a 3-3 this season, and Rachael didn't even make the GPF.
    And we've all seen what's happened to Mao's skating w/her preoccupation w/the Triple Axel. It's great to have it and land it, but when she misses it...The program suffers and it's a shame because I think that Mao is one of the ones who could do both. Have strong techincial skills along w/the artistic side of things.

    As for last night...That wasn't the death of the Sport and those who think so, I feel sorry for. Last night the Sport WON, because it's not all about one jump yet and I hope we never end up on that road ever. When we do, *then* we can say skating has died. Until then, might I point a certain Quad King to an actual Choreographer and a Spin coach, because he needs them!!

  11. #71
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    ^^ glad someone is on the same page
    Preoccupation with one jump is bad news...cough...Joubert...cough....Verner. I mean seriously.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftertherain View Post
    Thank you for pointing out that women spectators do not like quads and that our standards are so very low.

    .
    It's just a fact that most of the figure skating spectators these days are women. I attended a GP event last year, believe me, while there's a big line out side the ladies' washroom, the men's washroom was nearly empty. I felt a bit embarrassed to be one of the few male spectators by the rink. If women continue to prefer Chan-like skaters to win other more athletic skaters by doing 2A, it's time to move figure skating out of Olympics Games.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by watchvancouver View Post
    It's just a fact that most of the figure skating spectators these days are women. I attended a GP event last year, believe me, while there's a big line out side the ladies' washroom, the men's washroom was nearly empty. I felt a bit embarrassed to be one of the few male spectators by the rink. If women continue to prefer Chan-like skaters to win other more athletic skaters by doing 2A, it's time to move figure skating out of Olympics Games.
    1. Then either bring a friend or stay home. Whatever floats your pretty boat.
    2. Is that an ultimatum?
    3. Who the heck said that the majority of women like Chan-like skaters?

  14. #74
    Go marry the quad if you love it so much DesertRoad's Avatar
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    Are we returning the Olympics to its Greek roots of excluding women?

    Chan was credited with three 3axels at the Olympics, he only landed one double axel, you liar.

    And again, who are your colleagues? You can tell me, I promise I won't think worse of them for associating with a sexist liar.
    Last edited by DesertRoad; 02-19-2010 at 08:52 PM.

  15. #75
    Obviously obsessed Eevun's Avatar
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    Maybe they could start doing 8s and other figures again, like in the ooooold time. I mean, it's called figure skating.
    (I dont even know if Im serious)

    I feel splited about the quad question. I need more time to think about it. All of you have a point.
    The only thing I felt last night was the fs is not fair at all. I felt sick when I thought about the mens result. Fs are not compareble to any other sport in Olympics. Judged sport is so hard, never fair (I will not drag the robbed Stephane and Johnny and the overscored Pstrick up, I promise), especially not with different judges. The skaters can never be judged by robots and human judges can never be 100% equal even with a judge book. Sad but true. I enjoyed this final very much, I really did, but from now on I think Im not gonna care that much about competitions anymore. I love fs cos its such a beautiful sport to watch and its so sad may be destroyed by being judged. But on the other hand the competition is so exciting, we love the thrill, the heart ache and the joy. This is so hard...

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