I don't watch NBC's coverage of the games, I am not a fan of Evan's skating, but Evgeni and his absurd pelvic thrusts did not deserve gold, and I am quite capable of thinking for myself. Problems with the new scoring system? yes. Did Evgeni get robbed? no. Those are my opinions and you are entitled to yours...and please don't belittle me.you must be watching a lot of NBC and you are buying into anything. I feel so sad when the TV viewers don't think for themselves. DON'T BUY INTO ANYTHING!!
Awwww, poor Yagudin, he's so far behind of the great, "immortal" Plushenko, it almost sucks ... but how come that almost nobody else but the die-hard Plushenko-fans remember even one of his programs, with the exception of the "legendary""Sex Bomb", of course? "Winter", "Man In The Iron Mask", "Gladiator", "Etude Of Revolution", "Lawrence of Arabia", many ordinary skating fans all over the world have this programs in their mind, but just ask them what will remain of Plushenko --- just a number of titles and medals, just maths. Yags is an entire different matter, it's all about heart & soul, unforgettable performances, and people realise that, you know?
I used to enjoy Plushenko's skating back when he seemed to care somewhat about the artistry but I don't think he brought it here. I appreciate his fire and determination but all I could think about watching that choreography was that he looked like he should be skating to "Do ya think I'm Sexy?" by Rod Stewart. It just overshadowed any of his athleticism for me because I think you have to have the whole package. I'm not a fan of Evan's skating either but I think he stayed more committed to the program. I felt like Plushenko just thought it was in the bag as evidenced by his sword in the holster move afterward. It turned me off and it's a shame because really he is better than that. Skating is about athleticism but it is also about beautiful lines and deep edges...at least for us old timers who grew up expecting those things.Originally Posted by Nadine
Odd how two people can see the same thing, but in totally different ways.
For example, I've never ever gotten Yagudin, period. I thought he was & is overrated. I don't see artistry, nor dancing, nor stretched out legs, nor anything, though I do give him kudos for great jumps. As God is my witness, he reminded me of a crab with bent over poor posture & bowed legs, especially when he was doing his footwork. In contrast, I would have this ideal of Kurt Browning in my head ~ beautiful straight posture & legs dancing down the ice like Gene Kelley. But it was John Curry whom was the true male ballerina on ice.
None of the male Olympic Champions over the years have ever moved me except Curry & Plushenko. Period.
When I see Evgeni perform "Once Upon A Time In America" or "Carmen" or "The Godfather", I see everything that is great about this sport I love so much. True athleticism mixed with showmanship/art/whatever you want to call it. The complete package, and that's the honest to God's truth.
He has the perfect physique with beautiful posture & stretched out limbs, especially evident in his camel spin. None even come close. And when he is ON with the perfect vehicle to show off all his gifts, there's nothing like it! This is why I was so disappointed with his LP this year (not so much his SP, though it could be a tad better).
It's good & necessary to have an ego when competing, to believe you're the BEST, and he is! But that must be tempered with an understanding of COP & a willingness to conform to it, including a program that will draw the audience in, music that is familiar.
Like I've said since the beginning, this is a humbling & necessary experience for Evgeni to go through. I just don't want it to break his spirit.
You still are the BEST, #1, Numero Uno, et al. But your hubris must be tempered with what I said above.
GOOOOOOO EVGENI!!!!
I don't think Plush miscalculated the COP that much, after all he did get ok levels with relatively little effort, so in this sense he also took advantage of the system. Sure, he could have done more, but I think he really put out all he was capable of at that moment. (I really wonder how much his injury earlier in the season interfered with his training, I have a feeling he really had to pace himself and set priorities for his body to hold up till Olympics, afaik he's still skating with pain killers, which makes me applaud him for his achievment even more.)
I don't think his lack of better footwork or spins comes from arrogance or ignorance, he simply had to make some compromises considering the short time he had to bring *everything* back to competition level again. (And let's admit if he decided to go quadless and just do beautiful transitions and footwork most of us would have been very disappointed.)
And let's not forget that in the end his strategy almost worked, after all it was very very close and it could have easily gone the other way, and based on the scores he actually would have won if he just executed his planned program 100%. (And I also think if he'd been physically up to it, he could have done a second quad and then we wouldn't be having this discussion at all.)
ETA: I just want to add that I don't think it's fair to say he has no artistry, this is just another one of those culture clash issues IMO. He does have his own distinct style, and he is obviously musical and moving to the music. I totally undestand that some people don't like his style or don't think it's "real" artistry, but there are also lots of people who disagree, it's all very subjective and afaik there's no universal definition for "real" artistry. So IMO he is very much has artistic in his own way (and actually has a style of his own, which is a plus in my eyes), only it doesn't fit everyone's taste, but it's still artistry.
Last edited by tralfamadorian; 02-21-2010 at 04:36 PM.
Everyone needs to go read jcoates post now. Thank YOU!!!
Hello everybody.
This is my first post here, and probably there will be not many in future, since I'm just an occasional viewer of figure skating. But the whole polemic of the two Ev's took me so much that I decided to post my contribution here, with the premise that for what matters my favourite FS of this olympics has been Daisuke's.
I think one should give a look at the judges details for skaters, which can be found on the
ice skating page in the official vancouver olympics website.
Variance on Plushenko's is impressive. In the technical elements, fifth element gets a +2 from two judges and a -1 from other two judges, and opposite sign judgments are also in elements #1,#2 and #9 (on Lysacek's side this phenomenon never happens, what's positive is positive, what's negative is negative). also variance in Plushenko's components is impressive. For instance, transitions get a 6.0 from 2 judges and 8.75 from other two.
:(
This makes me prefer a lot the old non-anonymous system (not talking of CoP vs. 6.0 here, just that I liked when judges put their flag on it)
I absolutely agree about the anonimity of judges. Even if they're all 100% objective ( which would be a phenomenal accomplishment ,in the short time since the last scandal ), it leaves too much room for speculation.
I'm not the mother of a skater. I was a skater myself and, for your information, jumps were my strength. I've also judged skating. If you're going to question my own knowledge and credibility and get snarky about it, maybe you'd better lay yours on the line.which I guess some 'skating moms' have an issue with since their kids just can not jump.
My point here, if we're actually trying to look at the posts objectively is: Elvis Stojko is not a credible source because he was a figure jumper. In fact, one might say he ushered in the era of figure jumping. To say that the system that rewarded Evan was correct and the winner shouldn't just be the best jumper would be for Elvis to admit that he didn't deserve his own medals, or at least he'd never get them in this system. That's why I said he's lost all credibility with this article. His motivation for writing it is glaringly apparent.
Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 02-21-2010 at 05:27 PM.
Stojko really read my thoughts and made them known. I dont know why people here keep trying to defend Evan as if it were a personal issue Elvis had against Evan, nor anyone else for that matter. NO ONE THINGS EVAN IS A LOUSY SKATER! I think that skating is sport first and artistic performance next. I would watch ballet if artistry I was looking for. having said that, I don't even think that Evan is such a great artist nor does he have the best jumps- Oda and Kozuka, for example have better triple jumps than Lysacek. So, if someone else had a great artistry which grabs you by the throat like Michelle kwan for example, then there is an argument for this.
The component marks also include skating skills as one of the criteria- a skater who does a quad triple must surely have better skating skills than anyone else. Is that reflected in the scores? No. In 1988 tara won over MK and I was absolutely heartbroken for MK but I agreed with the result. I though MK had contributed far more to the skating world than any other girls I know in the past 10 years but I still thoguht that the result was right.
Elvis was also right to note that many junior skaters already have the content that Lysacek have before going into seniors. If I were them i wouldnt risk injury and heartache trying things which are not essential. In that sens the sport is going backwards. If I were mao asada and I see what is going on I would definitely not risk the 3A- she has already shown this year that it is not worth it. Double penalisation for underrotation and negative GOEs for trying to push the boundary.
A final thought- a quad triple combo is something which requires a lot of talent and hard work to happen. Better spins and footwork can be worked on by most elite skaters. I think this is the only year I disagree with the olympic champion for men's.
Thanks, it is an excellent post.
Sorry but you sound the same die hard Yagudin fan as the die hard Plushenko fans.Awwww, poor Yagudin, he's so far behind of the great, "immortal" Plushenko, it almost sucks ... but how come that almost nobody else but the die-hard Plushenko-fans remember even one of his programs, with the exception of the "legendary"
Cause I could write this also : many ordinary skating fans all over the world have this programs in their mind, but just ask them what will remain of Yagudin.
But I wont.
If you watch youtube views you will see both skaters are remembered for many of their programs.
Highlight Yagudin by diminishing Plushenko is an 6.0 attitude. I thought we were in CoP era.
Skating Skills in the program components refers to what you are doing when you are not jumping, spinning, etc. Things like speed throughout the program, depth of edges, ice coverage, etc.
Yes, it is entirely possible for someone to be a great jumper but have weak "Skating Skills" in the narrow sense of the PCSs.
Welcome and thanks for joining us. We hope you like it here!
Last edited by Mathman; 02-22-2010 at 04:29 PM.
A thoughtful and intelligent post that summarizes my feelings. Thank-you.Everyone needs to go read jcoates post now.
ditto on tralfamadoian!!!!
I've been wanting to send hugs to seniorita - I feel badly that Plushenko had those little errors throughout, for me, there is nothing like watching him when he is spot on (and I missed that); but kudos to his silver and what a come back! Congrats to Evan and Daisuke too !!! What a roller coaster of emotion! One thing I am clear about, I don't think I will ever really "get" the PCS marks, at least not intuitively or on a way that allows me to gauge scores while watching....in some way, realizing that is liberating as now I am definitely back to just watching and jumping up and down and enjoying (or crying) and I am not even trying to score.
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