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Thread: Ice Dance's OD - Sunday 21st 7:15pm EST

  1. #646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ivana View Post
    I might be the only one, but I did not like V/M OD, they seemed a bit slow to me and well after seeing the flamenco of Anissina & Peizerat, every other flamenco seems to me just like 2nd class attemp of something that was already done way better.

    D/W were on fire. Fully deserved move up the rankings, would have placed them even 1st.
    You aren't the only one. I wasn't overly impressed with V/M. Except for the 2 seconds Scott stamped his feet, I thought the footwork did not go with the music at all. I would've swapped the OD scores of D/W and V/M. I'm going to get piled on, but I think V/M got a bit of a Canadian boost. They should be in 1st overall, but I think the scores should be closer. I also don't place them among the greats. Good, yes, but great, not so much.

  2. #647
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    I think those quotes are her original statements from January. The latest I could find was

    http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...0209-nnlb.html

    Manton said the decision to drop the costumes is a victory for common sense but the skaters also need to consider reworking the music in their routine.

    "It's good that the skaters have recognised the offence the costumes caused to many Aboriginal people and the importance of not exploiting our culture," Manton said.
    Again, I hope it all ends well, one good effect of this is that I bet many skating fans who were comlpetely unaware of aboriginal culture (like me) now at least now a little bit about it. (Not from D/S dance though, but because of all the debates on this. And speaking of debates, I don't want to rehash them, I know I brought up this topic too, so now I'll stop.)

  3. #648
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    I preferred Davis and White to Virtue and Moir, although part of that may be because their music and program is unique, whereas V&M's program is more ordinary.

    Tracy Wilson said what V&M did was risky though, so I guess that is what was rewarded.

  4. #649
    Away with the ice dancing faeries Cadiva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoyoyogi View Post
    I think I could live with the D/S costumes if they weren't acting so cartoonish. They might as well have been in black-face because it was such a carictature. D/S are wonderful skaters but this program is just plain unpalatable. If they were at their best with good programs I would be excited to see what happened with such great quality skating going on with the other teams especially the top two teams. However I did think B/A were a bit undermarked. Not a fabulous program but it was complicated and well skated maybe a bit tight but their marks should have at least met D/S's.
    This was Robin Cousins' argument too, that it was a characateur and not a characterisation.
    Last edited by Cadiva; 02-22-2010 at 06:34 PM.

  5. #650
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadiva View Post
    This was Robin Cousins' argument too, that it was a characateur and not a characterisation.
    I think they don't see it as such and that is the heart of the problem. Oh, people can try and explain it to you but it's not real most of the time. I've seen this in some Easter European countries and most of the time it's a good thing - they don't have any past when it comes to the race issue, especially concerning 'aboriginal' people (the native peoples, am not sure what the proper term would be). To them it's just a blank slate, and with many people this is an incredibly good thing. They have no baggage so they treat race as nothing, just another difference (there are racist people everywhere of course, for what ever insane reasons but those aside).

    Now as I said this kind of blank slate is a good thing but what irked me more than any of that black face issue etc is that they as world class figure skaters ended up looking totally detached from the rest of the world - they didn't bother to research just a tad and they didn't bother to contact someone with first hand knowledge in it. It is partially understandable in the sense I mentioned, they did seem completely naive about the whole issue but again, it irks me that in the 21st century it is suddenly that hard to google on the internet a bit and just find more about a topic or just ask. Not just DomShabs, their coaches etc too. Total lack of basic skills and simple logic in this day and age.

  6. #651
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadiva View Post
    This was Robin Cousins' argument too, that it was a characateur and not a characterisation.
    I'm glad to be in such good company. I wonder what else Robin and I have in common?...

  7. #652
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    I am from Moldova and I can assure you - music, costumes, moves - very authentic, you can see them in any Moldavian (Romanian) dance!

  8. #653
    Away with the ice dancing faeries Cadiva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Now as I said this kind of blank slate is a good thing but what irked me more than any of that black face issue etc is that they as world class figure skaters ended up looking totally detached from the rest of the world - they didn't bother to research just a tad and they didn't bother to contact someone with first hand knowledge in it.
    Yup, totally agree, especially considering with their available talent and skill, they could have produced something truly spectacular. You only have to watch the Maori Ka Mate haka to see the passion evident in their dances, or watch a haka from a different South Pacific nation to spot the subtle differences between them all. Or they could have just watched the Australian Aboriginal Dance from the 2000 Olympic Games ceremony to give themselves a better idea.
    It's just shoddy and shows a lack of respect although, personally, I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say it was offensive. I'm sure there's people in all cultures that would take exception to any given interpretation of their culture in the OD. Fortunately no-one decided to do an English folk dance so I didn't have to get upset at the sterotype of waving hankies and bells in a Morris Dance (given that there's at least five different types of Morris Dance!)
    Last edited by Cadiva; 02-22-2010 at 07:38 PM.

  9. #654
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cadiva View Post
    Yup, totally agree, especially considering with their available talent and skill, they could have produced something truly spectacular. You only have to watch the Maori Ka Mate haka to see the passion evident in their dances, or watch a haka from a different South Pacific nation to spot the subtle differences between them all. Or they could have just watched the Australian Aboriginal Dance from the 2000 Olympic Games ceremony to give themselves a better idea.
    It's just shoddy and shows a lack of respect although, personally, I'm not sure I'd go as far as to say it was offensive. I'm sure there's people in all cultures that would take exception to any given interpretation of their culture in the OD. Fortunately no-one decided to do an English folk dance so I didn't have to get upset at the sterotype of waving hankies and bells in a Morris Dance (given that there's at least five different types of Morris Dance!)
    I have to disagree on the relativizing of how offensive the Australian Aboriginal dance may be to that group vs. say, the Moldovan or Indian folk dances; to wit, whereas the latter two have gotten kudos from actual Moldovans and Indians, given the history of stigmatization, racism and marginalization on their own soil that has marked the Australian Aboriginal experience, it's normal that the added indignity of such a high profile caricature would elicit the reaction that it has.

    Tesla, I have to concur that there may just have been an itty bitty, teeny tiny Canadian boost for V/M, whose OD, I thought, did not interpret the flamenco piece that impressively, particularly in the percussive sections...*runs and hides*

    (full disclosure: I've never been the biggest fan of flamenco, preferring the original Arabic rhythms from which it has heavily borrowed, and this might well color my perception of any skate to flamenco. That said, D/W's disarmingly charming and well-researched Bollywood number played to both my musical and skating movement preferences)
    Last edited by sarahmistral; 02-22-2010 at 09:09 PM.

  10. #655
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    I finally got to watch the OD from the other day...... flamenco by V/M...... flamenco???? hardly...... have they ever even watched any real flamenco???
    Sorry everyone but it's a pet peeve of mine - I hate that ice dancers and pair skaters always want to do flamenco numbers because they are supposed to be sensual and passionate regarding the man and woman....... flamenco is 98% individual! And aside from the Lambiel flamenco number I would have to say that it should never be attempted....... ever again..... by any couple.... ice dance or pair.......
    it looked more like a samba than flamenco...... the costumes weren't even up to snuff! she looked like she was about to do an international style latin number!

    ick!


    Go Bollywood!

  11. #656
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    ok a little late here but i watch OD , hate davis and white bollywood , what is that?????? Under what folk/country category, not actually Indian folk dancing, not that authentic, oh goodness and skate so slow......boring put me to sleep

  12. #657
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahmistral View Post
    I have to disagree on the relativizing of how offensive the Australian Aboriginal dance may be to that group vs. say, the Moldovan or Indian folk dances; to wit, whereas the latter two have gotten kudos from actual Moldovans and Indians, given the history of stigmatization, racism and marginalization on their own soil that has marked the Australian Aboriginal experience, it's normal that the added indignity of such a high profile caricature would elicit the reaction that it has.
    I wasn't aware that the Russians colonized Australia.

    And before you go on, read what both of us have written first. You cannot expect countries who have not had issues with this kind of thing to automatically feel the same burdens that the Americans, Canadians and Australians feel. There just isn't any 'feeling' at all of this kind there.

    I know because I don't have it myself. I sympathise on an visceral level, I can intellectually understand what went on, I can comprehend the complex situation now but I do not have any feelings whatsoever in regards to the 'guilt' or whatever towards the native peoples nor do I treat them any differently than anyone else. This has brought on trouble several times due to the burdens they themselves now carry - they could not understand the blasé attitude I had towards race, that was out of their experience so automatically it was labeled fake and insulting.

    Now what I do blame them for I've already said; I put even more blame on the people around them, as not only DomShabs are involved there. But also you all have got to understand that there are other attitudes and other histories and people who have not had the sort of issues you've had. I do not expect you to, apart from a basic general knowledge, to understand the problems of the Caucasus (and no, I am not Russian but as a Euro these issues affect us all), it would not be normal for you to be aware of it.

    Your, hypothetical, mistake would be the same as their's is now - lack of research when going into a venture such as this one and lack of basic skills that are familiar to most people when researching something of this sort. Or, if they had just asked someone directly there, they would have been made aware of the sensitivity of the issue - even now.

    It is most likely they encountered the history but without talking to someone involved they did not extrapolate this to possible feelings that still exist today which would have been conveyed to them by someone on that side.

    Nothing is ever black and white and it is easy to just condemn without bothering to realize that though they are in the wrong, there are reasons underneath it all that do not justify but at least explain some of it.

    There was no malicious intent, which I think is very important to understand as it's quite different to mess up royally because you're a bit of a dunce and to intentionally insult someone on this level.
    Last edited by Alatariel; 02-23-2010 at 06:30 AM.

  13. #658
    Away with the ice dancing faeries Cadiva's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sarahmistral View Post
    I have to disagree on the relativizing of how offensive the Australian Aboriginal dance may be to that group vs. say, the Moldovan or Indian folk dances;
    I'm not talking about any of the other ODs that were danced this year. I'm talking about how anyone interprets someone else's culture. There is always going to be someone upset by that interpretation. I think the Russian's OD showed a dreadful lack of judgement, research and world awareness, but I still do not think it was offensive.

  14. #659
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    Quote Originally Posted by lcd View Post
    The top two have brought the sport and CoP full circle. The teams that brought it in every dimension were rewarded. That said, seems clear it would take something seismic to shake D/S off the podium. And aren't F/S nicely positioned to be standing on the podium when worlds go to Torino.
    Absolutely. And that would be well deserved, becasue the Italians have the best free program (outside the top 2) this year. I am rooting for them to see that materialize.

  15. #660
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    I wasn't aware that the Russians colonized Australia.

    And before you go on, read what both of us have written first. You cannot expect countries who have not had issues with this kind of thing to automatically feel the same burdens that the Americans, Canadians and Australians feel. There just isn't any 'feeling' at all of this kind there.

    I know because I don't have it myself. I sympathise on an visceral level, I can intellectually understand what went on, I can comprehend the complex situation now but I do not have any feelings whatsoever in regards to the 'guilt' or whatever towards the native peoples nor do I treat them any differently than anyone else. This has brought on trouble several times due to the burdens they themselves now carry - they could not understand the blasé attitude I had towards race, that was out of their experience so automatically it was labeled fake and insulting.

    Now what I do blame them for I've already said; I put even more blame on the people around them, as not only DomShabs are involved there. But also you all have got to understand that there are other attitudes and other histories and people who have not had the sort of issues you've had. I do not expect you to, apart from a basic general knowledge, to understand the problems of the Caucasus (and no, I am not Russian but as a Euro these issues affect us all), it would not be normal for you to be aware of it.

    Your, hypothetical, mistake would be the same as their's is now - lack of research when going into a venture such as this one and lack of basic skills that are familiar to most people when researching something of this sort. Or, if they had just asked someone directly there, they would have been made aware of the sensitivity of the issue - even now.

    It is most likely they encountered the history but without talking to someone involved they did not extrapolate this to possible feelings that still exist today which would have been conveyed to them by someone on that side.

    Nothing is ever black and white and it is easy to just condemn without bothering to realize that though they are in the wrong, there are reasons underneath it all that do not justify but at least explain some of it.

    There was no malicious intent, which I think is very important to understand as it's quite different to mess up royally because you're a bit of a dunce and to intentionally insult someone on this level.
    First off, simply stating that the specific historical experience of a group might make them more sensitive to and easily offended by a dance such as DomShabs, which is all I was saying, is hardly tantamount to saying that the Russians colonized Australia, and I find that remark unnecessarily snide and dismissive of my post to boot. The performance of the piece on the world stage, by anyone, particularly White Europeans, a caricature of the culture of a community that's had the experiences that Australian aboriginal peoples have had, may make it even more offensive to them. Clearly it won't be experienced as offensive by you, Alatariel or Cadiva, and it is as normal for you to have a 'blank slate' concerning racially inflammatory and insensitive stereotypes as it is for Aboriginal Australians to be MORE up in arms about this specific depiction than the next group, who, perhaps because their culture has had more exposure in the West, might have benefited from that greater awareness in the form of a more accurate, less caricatural portrayal of their dances, dress, etc. Where you read my post as overtly condemning DomShabs and/or those around them, I don't know. I wasn't concerned with their intent or even with judging what they did, but rather with the reaction to it by the group in question.

    The problem with relativizing the degree of offense, in my view, is that while all peoples have had experiences that most of the rest of the world is unaware of, and that's normal, as you say, Alatariel, the specific history of many colonized peoples, long derided as 'peoples without history' in the West, makes such instances of cross-cultural borrowing potentially more sensitive and fraught than they would otherwise be. Incidentally, I happened upon a documentary the other day about Aboriginal Australians in the Kimberley region who, in the early 20th century, when the pseudoscience of eugenics held sway, became the targets of a Swedish expedition whose members, looking for empirical evidence of their belief that the Aboriginals were the 'missing link', stole the bones of some one or two dozen of their ancestors and given the importance of burial of their elders in their belief system, was experienced as a particularly traumatic intrusion.

    So while I understand that in theory, we can all get upset at how someone else misrepresents our culture, it is not unreasonable to suggest, as I did, that some groups, given their collective experiences, might be more offended than others. That you may understand this intellectually, Alatariel, but not viscerally, is perfectly normal, but it does not negate what I tried and perhaps failed to express in my original post. Cadiva, I can understand that you did not find the OD offensive, but all I have been trying to say is that this case goes beyond the usual degree to which people might be upset, and it does so for specific historical reasons.

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