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Thread: Plushenko & other Russians comment on the Men's Event

  1. #151
    Worshipping at the temple of Severus Snape Alatariel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Plushy will always be remembered in history as a great skater. Evan will be remembered as the one who beat him in Vancouver.
    Just like Sarah Hughes is remembered

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Just like Sarah Hughes is remembered
    No way, Evan has done way more and will be somewhat remembered

  3. #153
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Just like Sarah Hughes is remembered
    How can anyone forget Sarah - when you mention her so often

    What's with that? Are you on the Hughes family payroll

  4. #154
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    I wish you guys wouldn't drag Sarah's name into all this, seriously, she's one of my all-time favorites, along with Sonja Henie & Oksana Baiul. Always has been. Her Olympic Free Skate is my favorite of all-time, bar none, that truly was one for the ages ~ magic, pure magic out there on that special night, like a fairy, the hardest Olympic routine ever done by a lady figure skater ~ she deserved it!

    But in all honesty whom remembers every single Olympic Champion? I know I don't. Lol, I once took this internet quiz on the 'net this past year, it gave you a certain amount of time to name ALL the Olympic Champions, both male & female, and I lost big time! Lol, seriously, I think I scored around a 60 or 70, something like that.

    Off the top of my head it went & goes like this:

    Sonja Henie (of course)
    Dick Button (of course)
    Gillis Graftstrom (actually had to look his name up this past weekend, lol)
    Karl Schaefer (tied with Dick)
    Ulrich Salchow (only remember him b/c of the famous move, lol)
    Barbara Ann Scott (know her name b/c she's the only one to have won gold from her country in singles)
    Tenley Albright (1st American woman to do so, duh)
    Carol Ann Heiss (American)
    Peggy Fleming (ditto)
    Dorothy Hamill (ditto, my fav of all the Americans as well, lol)
    Kristi Yamaguchi (American)
    Tara Lipinski (ditto)
    Sarah Hughes (one of my all-time favs)
    Oksana Baiul (ditto)
    Trixie Schuba (unfortunately I remember her b/c of the figures)
    Katarina Witt (come on, she's 2nd to Sonja, how can anybody forget, duh)
    Arakawa (1st Japanese woman to do so)
    Jenkins Bros. (sorry, I just remember that two brothers won one apiece during the 1960's; one is married to Carol Ann Heiss)
    John Curry (ah, how can anybody forget!)
    Robin Cousins (nice guy)
    Scott Hamilton (hmm, think I'll remember silent for now, lol)
    Brian Boitano (very nice guy with tons of difficulty!)
    Viktor Petrenko (1st Russian to do so, I think?)
    Alexei Urmanov (lol, after such a long time of forgetting his name I remembered!)
    Ilia Kulik (married to Katia Gordeeva)
    Alexei Yagudin (same thing applies to my comments as regards Alexei Urmanov)
    Evgeni Plushenko (greatest of all time, and I've been there every wonderful second along the way, since the beginning, does my heart good!)

    That's it, I honestly don't remember the others from the early years, nor some even later on, sorry guys. *sad*

    And I wonder how many I will remember 20 yrs. from now besides The Immortals & my all-time favorites & the Americans, etc.

  5. #155
    Worshipping at the temple of Severus Snape Alatariel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    How can anyone forget Sarah - when you mention her so often

    What's with that? Are you on the Hughes family payroll
    Blame the Russians. They dug her up in order to explain a few things. I had no idea who she was ... and yet I remember being mightily p off that year due to that boost. I'll forget her again as soon as the Olympics are over until another journo digs up her name again when it's time to 'remember' those who won yet were completely forgettable, oh and got their wins by other means too.

  6. #156
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Why are we so worried about how someone will be remembered ages hence?

    Lysacek skated great and won the top prize in this competition. Yay!

    This does not diminish the esteem in which Pklushenko's accomplishments are held.

    Sarah Hughes will always have a golden memory to cherish -- even if Michelle and Irina decide one day to break into her house and steal her medal.

  7. #157
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Blame the Russians. They dug her up in order to explain a few things. I had no idea who she was ... and yet I remember being mightily p off that year due to that boost. I'll forget her again as soon as the Olympics are over until another journo digs up her name again when it's time to 'remember' those who won yet were completely forgettable, oh and got their wins by other means too.
    I will never forget Sarah's SLC LP.
    What a magical Olympic moment it was and if Sarah was never my favorite skater her LP that night was far and away my favorite.

    Here it is just for your enjoyment. Watch it and maybe you will learn something about seizing the moment and making a dream come true.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2KYn...rom=PL&index=9

    You seem to admire Dai so much for attempting a quad. Maybe you forgot that Sarah was the only Lady to try two 3x3's that night.

    You admire Dai but knock Sarah. I guess you can never forgive her for winning.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Lysacek skated great and won the top prize in this competition. Yay!
    This does not diminish the esteem in which Pklushenko's accomplishments are held.
    Sarah Hughes will always have a golden memory to cherish -- even if Michelle and Irina decide one day to break into her house and steal her medal.
    That is my secret naughty wish

    I hate all the abuse Plushy's getting. It's as though people have forgotten how great of a skater Plushenko was in his prime (I can't believe some will go so far as to crown Lysacek the better skater. C'mon) and the dispute has been blown out of proportion to tarnish Plushenko's skating. Mishin's pretty bad, but when you get down to it, Plushenko has never said anything as outrageous as NBC would like you to believe. He's entitled to his opinions, isn't he? Why can't he express them, as long as he toes the line? He has never bashed Evan as a person. His complaints are in essence about the system itself. He thinks the CoP is flawed, the gold medalist should have a quad and that his performance would've been good enough under 6.0. Is that really enough to garner so much hate?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Why are we so worried about how someone will be remembered ages hence?
    The Plushenko supporters seem to think that this is some sort of an argument.

    The debate: Who really won.

    The issue: Plushenko did a quad but that was not enough points to win overall even with PC scores boosted in favor of Plushenko. That is not fair...

    What really happened: Plushenko did not skate well and his program was not designed for the new system of judging. The Russian PM declared him the true winner.

    The Chewbacca defense: Plushenko will be remembered more than Lysacek... so... he should have won gold that nigh?
    (this is where this whole shaky argument loses all credibility and fall into twilight zone territory.)

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by jennylovskt View Post
    Flip or not, it doesn't matter. No body cares flip, everyone talks about quad. Triple flip is just another triple jump. Quad is a jump on the next level. The judges inflated Lysacek's SP score, even inflated Takahashi's SP score. As a result, it created this narrow difference in the total scores. I agree that Plushenko didn't do enough in LP, but Lysacek should not be a champion as the result. He could just win the LP. I think everyone could accept that.
    To me, this is quite hilarious and the most succinct statement that illustrates what's wrong with the "quad is king" viewpoint.

    1) How were Takahashi and Lysacek overscored in the short? They both had a lower base value by about four points compared to Plushenko, and scored 8.3 and 8.1 on GOES (compared to Plushenko's 7). This is pretty fair, imo - both have stronger spins and footwork than Plushenko (Plushenko got 4.0 GOE on his jumps, as did Takahashi; Lysacek got 3.4). Plushenko got positive GOES for his spins, and that's fair given how they mark the spins (though they're not the most attractive in the world). And in PCS - well, both should've routed Plushenko there. Plushenko pretty much matched them for Performance/Execution and Skating Skills (also fair), but lost to them on transitions, interpretation and choreography (and arguably should've lost by more). Basically, the advatange earned by one element was nearly balanced by the disadvantage he had on three of the five PCS and four elements. Where would you have dropped points, to whom, and by how much?

    2) "Flip or no flip" - to me, this renders your argument a little weaker. You're arguing for technical diffculty and risk taking, right? Well, a triple flip as the last jump is more technically difficult and a higher risk than a double axel, right? No, it's not a quad, but if Plushenko's and/or his fans are gonna portray him(self) as the guy with the most technical difficultly in the jumps, than it's something that should be discussed. We're yelling at the women for not having a full set of triples (minus the axel), but we want it to be okay for a gold medalist men to be missing one (the same thing with Lambiel and his triple axel, except he loses a bucketload more points)? Does that make sense to you?

    3)... but the quad. Oy vey, the quad. The impression I've been getting from you, from Alatriel, from watchvancouver, is that there's only one way to be come a memorable men's champion, and that's the quad. Doesn't matter what you're lacking (see your "flip or no flip" comment), as long as you have the quad, that's the true road to a masculine championship and not to being a "talentless drone." (Note: no one competing in the Olympic Games is a talentless drone, and you make yourself look stupid, Alatriel, by suggesting otherwise). The quad should probably be worth more, but the unearned bonus you get in terms of higher PCS more than compensates for it.

    4) Doesn't quality itself matter? Plushenko didn't have his best jumps in the free program. He didn't have the best jumps period. Should he get bonus points for essentially landing upright despite the fight (which indicates that the jumps themselves aren't the highest quality?

    5) I think the kicker truly is that Lysacek isn't the complete skater we want. The N. American media is trying desperately to portray it as a battle between quality vs the quad, and while they have a true member of the latter category, they don't the former. And that's an issue. The fact is, Evan doesn't have the musicality, choreography, or the pure skating skills of a clean Takahashi, Lambiel or Chan (yes, I said Chan). You notice how many people praise his work ethic above all else? It's almost a backhanded compliment at this point (no, he doesn't have the pure natural talent of some of the best, but he's worked so much harder to get to where he is now). But he clearly has a strong work ethic, drive to be the best, and a great team who worked to help him win gold. Is it a victory I love? Nope - watching the youtube videos of Yagudin and Kulik makes me wish I had a stronger understanding of figure skating then so I could cherish their victories more. Do I wish that Lambiel/Takahashi/Chan/Abbott/Verner/Oda etc had skated better and perhaps podiumed like they have the talent for (in Takahashi's case, outright victory)? Yep. My nightmare podium was Plushenko-Joubert-Lysacek, so this really isn't that much better, but I'll take it.

  11. #161
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    5) I think the kicker truly is that Lysacek isn't the complete skater we want. The N. American media is trying desperately to portray it as a battle between quality vs the quad, and while they have a true member of the latter category, they don't the former. And that's an issue. The fact is, Evan doesn't have the musicality, choreography, or the pure skating skills of a clean Takahashi, Lambiel or Chan (yes, I said Chan). You notice how many people praise his work ethic above all else? It's almost a backhanded compliment at this point (no, he doesn't have the pure natural talent of some of the best, but he's worked so much harder to get to where he is now). But he clearly has a strong work ethic, drive to be the best, and a great team who worked to help him win gold. Is it a victory I love? Nope - watching the youtube videos of Yagudin and Kulik makes me wish I had a stronger understanding of figure skating then so I could cherish their victories more. Do I wish that Lambiel/Takahashi/Chan/Abbott/Verner/Oda etc had skated better and perhaps podiumed like they have the talent for (in Takahashi's case, outright victory)? Yep. My nightmare podium was Plushenko-Joubert-Lysacek, so this really isn't that much better, but I'll take it.
    Thank you! I would also add Abbott and Kozuka to the skaters that I have bolded in your quote. Evan's skating is too robotic to ever be honestly thought of as well-balanced and artistic. Sadly, every American media commentator is neglecting that fact.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 02-21-2010 at 11:48 AM.

  12. #162
    Worshipping at the temple of Severus Snape Alatariel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    3)... but the quad. Oy vey, the quad. The impression I've been getting from you, from Alatriel, from watchvancouver, is that there's only one way to be come a memorable men's champion, and that's the quad. Doesn't matter what you're lacking (see your "flip or no flip" comment), as long as you have the quad, that's the true road to a masculine championship and not to being a "talentless drone." (Note: no one competing in the Olympic Games is a talentless drone, and you make yourself look stupid, Alatriel, by suggesting otherwise). The quad should probably be worth more, but the unearned bonus you get in terms of higher PCS more than compensates for it.

    4) Doesn't quality itself matter? Plushenko didn't have his best jumps in the free program. He didn't have the best jumps period. Should he get bonus points for essentially landing upright despite the fight (which indicates that the jumps themselves aren't the highest quality?
    It's obvious you can read so the only thing remaining is that you pick and chose what you want from it and spin it to fit your own agenda.

    I've repeatedly said two things - the person I most loved on the night was Dai. He went at it with the spirit of a true Olympic champion knowing that it's a huge risk to take. He didn't make it but he went for it. He was the person I rooted for the most on the night and though he could have won easily if he skated a clean program without the quad - huge respect for the man, huge. Second, Plushenko, regardless of the whole Evan issue, lost it on his own because he missed out on the second landed quad - why I have no idea, though my personal opinion is that he is getting old and simply can't do them.

    The reason I call Evan a talentless drone and the reason why I am up in arms for the quad is simple - when the other side exaggerates I will have some fun and exaggerate as well. Lysacek is not a great talent, he is though a hard worker who pushed himself up due to it and also had the luck of skating at the time he did. He still made the best of what he had and that's brill of him. On the other hand, the whole Eurostrash, villain, commie etc nonsense is fine for some people so I am going to call Lysacek a talentless drone as long as the other is ok too. It's just tit for tat, nothing more.

    Two things - I'd love a quote where I said that a quad is the be all end all. I do hold the view of it being a necessity in today's skating and I hold the view that it should be marked higher than it is. Those who take risks and pull it off should be rewarded. I remember someone doing a calculation here over what a skater would get with a highly difficult combo and other jumps and with a 'standard' set of jumps if combined properly but one more - almost equal. No reward at all. That is bull.

    Second, another reason why I call Lysacek as I do is something I've written oh about a dozen times - he is not the all round skater everyone is touting him to be. No, this is not a valid argument at all and again, as long as people use this nonsense as an argument, without bothering to address the facts once pointed out to them, then the only thing that remains is to have a bit of fun by pulling their chain. It's no use trying to explain your point when people don't want to read what you have actually written ... so since this is the internetz and I like being in a good mood and do not take this seriously ... the drone ah, the drone.

  13. #163
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    because figure skating is a sport, not a show
    Really? Is that what he believes? Is that why he did all the silly pose striking in front of the judges? If anyone tried to turn it into a 'show' it was Plushenko. It's not a "show", either, it's where art meets sport & sport does not just mean jumps.

    I'm so tired of hearing what the Russian Federation has to say about it, and bringing up Salt Lake just irritates me even more. Apparently the Russians believe that, if the Russian doesn't win, it was unfair. How many times have we, in North America, watched a Russian win and truly think it was unfair? How many times in the ice dance? I hope Scott and Tessa win the ice dance now so it can be just more sour grapes and 'they only won because they're Canadian.' IMO, the Russian have only won because they were Russian many times. And, no, Evan was not gifted; he knows how to read and, apparently, Plushenko cannot.

    Lysacek is not a great talent,
    I am shockingly going to somewhat agree with something you're saying and I do get your point about Evan: he has some poor jumping technique, I find his footwork choppy and his arm movements jerky. But he won because he maximized every point he could get according to CoP, and was the only contender to have the skate of his life. And I get upset about the whole aftermath because, though I do not care for Evan as a skater, I feel he won fair and square and all this controversy robs him of a tiny bit of his victory, and he doesn't deserve that.
    Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 02-21-2010 at 12:15 PM.

  14. #164
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Evan's skating is too robotic to ever be honestly thought of as well-balanced and artistic. Sadly, every American media commentator is neglecting that fact.
    That is just your opinion and your taste which you and others are entitled too.

    As an example, I would agree with comments here that Evan just uses the music without really being musical.
    OK, that is an opinion and I can see how some feel that way.

    Here is another opinion. For long portions of his program Plushy completely ignores the music and just skates like it is not even there.

    I prefer Evan atleast using the music too a skater who completely disregards it for such long stretches.

    This was noticed by ISU judges who used Plushy's Torino LP to demonstrate a skater not only without transitions but also to clearly show skating with a complete disconnect from the music.

    The biggest irony of this is not whether Evan or Plushy won - but Mishin and Plushy's remarks that Evan is a retro skater and Plushy's skating is somehow futuristic.

    Sorry - but that is laughable. No skater in Men's event is more retro in style than Plushy. Even Johnny, showing great artistry has a much CoP friendlier program than Plushy.

    Please, we are not blind and we know what we saw.
    Plushy was pretty good - but not great. His program showed a lack of understanding CoP and the truth is that it was terribly outdated. It was frontloaded, lacked transitions, and had some old fashioned spins and footwork.

    Plushy skated to a Tango - but like Evan he used the music rather than interpreted it.

    In no way did Plushy take skating forward. His almost pure 6.0 style represented the past.
    Since he was overmarked on the pcs he could have won with his 6.0 skating if he had executed his jumps better, or done anything in the last minute. He did not show a full set of triples either and one quad is not the future. Three quads were done in 2002.


    I suspect maybe Plushy did the best he could do although I think he jumped better at Euros. I don't know if Plushy can land big jumps in the second half of a program or if he really can match Evan or Dai on other elements.

    His comeback was amazing and maybe sooner or later he will realize it and accept that under CoP he finished 2nd.

  15. #165
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    PLushu was first under CoP in 2006 with personal best! Why do you have such short memory??

    All NA people and media pushed Abbott for favourite and claimed Lysacek was a talentless skater, and all of a sudden he became the one and only all-rounded skater?

    Forums were full of people bashing Lysacek and suddenly he is everyone's favourite...
    This is very hypocritical...
    Last edited by nastasi1212; 02-21-2010 at 12:24 PM.

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