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Thread: An important lesson for skaters, know the rules.

  1. #16
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Blah blah blah.

    Dai could have easily won the OGM. Easily. If he had landed that quad he would have been even more pumped and it would have been an easy win. If he skated a clean program without the quad he still would have won easily over the drone. His PCS were the highest too. So be sure he knows the sacrosanct Rules of Competition quite well.

    He did the quad because he feels to be a worthy Champion of the Olympic Games should at least try one. True champion in all ways. Unlike the talentless drone. But it may as well be a culture difference - some people celebrate even losses when they are honourable, some celebrate wins even when they are dishonourable.
    blah, blay blah and phooey on your same old opinions. Let's have some facts for once. You talk like you know Dai and are his best friend. What baloney and we have all read the same interviews.

    You keep saying the same thing over and over and your opinions do not become more believeable just because you state them a few hundred times.

    Here is a fact for you. Maybe you better sit down first since it might shock you.
    Dai is the Olympic bronze medalist. Quite an accomplishment.

    Evan is and always will the the 2010 Olympic champion. No amount of your whining and delusional opinions will ever change that.

    Now please don't forget to knock Sarah in your reply. The girl you claim has been forgotten who magically appears in so many of your posts here.

    Get a grip already. There will be new controversies soon and they might actually be worth discussing.
    For the Men - Evan won, Plushy came second, and Dai finished third.

    Those are the facts.
    Last edited by janetfan; 02-21-2010 at 09:58 AM.

  2. #17
    Worshipping at the temple of Severus Snape Alatariel's Avatar
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    Yes, everyone else should sit down and shut up because janetfan says so. Somehow I don't think so. Keep trying.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Yes, everyone else should sit down and shut up because janetfan says so. Somehow I don't think so. Keep trying.
    Brilliant remarks.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Yes, everyone else should sit down and shut up because janetfan says so. Somehow I don't think so. Keep trying.
    I often do not agree with janetfan (we but heads now and again) but I have to say that I agree here.

    The rules are the rules and you really should not berate someone who studies them, plays by them, and wins. Dai played by the rules a well. HE had a great IJS program and is a wonderfully talented skater with some of the best skating skills in the group. He took a risk that did not pay off. He had some under rotated jumps and some edge warnings as well. I am sure missing the 4T threw him off his game. He won the Bronze and should be proud of it. The judges gave him the highest PCS score of the group even though he had 4 mistakes on his jumps. They did that because his transitions and performance execution were impeccable

    That does not mean Evan is a "talentless drones that work the system" He is an excellent skater, with great skating skills, interpretation, jumps, and spins.

    Anton Kovalevski who placed dead last in the 2010 men’s figure skating competition is many times better than just about anyone if not everyone posting on this board. There are probably thousands and thousands of skaters between your ability and his.

    Everyone who qualified for the Olympics should be very proud!

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Yes, everyone else should sit down and shut up because janetfan says so. Somehow I don't think so. Keep trying.
    Alatariel does have a point. I don't begrudge Evan his win and I do think he is a legitimate gold medalist. But it can't be denied that his program construction to maximize COP points contributed to his win. His competitors weren't as smart with the COP and that held them back.

    I for one would have been happier to see both Evgeni be more COP conscious, but hey you can't blame Evan for the fact that the other guys don't think about the rules as much as he has ;-)

  6. #21
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alatariel View Post
    Blah blah blah.

    Dai could have easily won the OGM. Easily. If he had landed that quad he would have been even more pumped and it would have been an easy win. If he skated a clean program without the quad he still would have won easily over the drone. His PCS were the highest too. So be sure he knows the sacrosanct Rules of Competition quite well.

    He did the quad because he feels to be a worthy Champion of the Olympic Games should at least try one. True champion in all ways. Unlike the talentless drone. But it may as well be a culture difference - some people celebrate even losses when they are honourable, some celebrate wins even when they are dishonourable.
    Enough of this.

    There is nothing dishonorable about Evan's victory. He won fairly because he packed his program with many elements that COP values, worked his butt off and performed two great programs in a row. Plushenko had one great element but the rest of his program was vulnerable. He paid the price.

    You may dislike the way Evan skates. You make dislike that he didn't do a quad. But I don't see how Evan dishonored himself at all.

    As for remembering skaters: Too bad that last image many people will have of Plushenko is him stepping on top of the podium because he'd "forgotten" he won the silver. He's making it incredibly easy for Evan to take the high road and look classy. The whining from Plushenko, Russia and some of his fans are ensuring that more people are paying attention to Evan than normally would have.

    It's actually YOU who is trying to tell everyone to shut up with childish comments like "blah blah blah..."

    Well, fine. And since I'm not Evan and I don't have to try to look classy in interviews, I say, nanny-nanny-boo. Evan won. So there.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by pengdequan View Post
    He did it not because he feels to be a worthy Champion of the Olympic Games should at least try one.It was because he didn't want to waste his effort for training that quad.He trained it,so he did it.
    I thought that even attempting a quad was worth a lot of points. How many points is it worth?
    Last edited by zowie; 02-21-2010 at 10:45 AM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by gfskater View Post
    Anton Kovalevski who placed dead last in the 2010 men’s figure skating competition is many times better than just about
    anyone if not everyone posting on this board...
    Hah! Bring him on. I'll throw my Iron Lotus at him (base value, 25.6 points)

    What no one seems to be considering is the possibility that coaching teams -- who eat, live, and breathe competitive figure skating -- do know the rules. I think all skaters do whatever they can to maximize their scoring potential.

    Plushenko front loaded his jumps because that gave him a better chance of landing them before fatigue set in. He did not do transitions between his biggest elements because if he had he might not have been able to complete the jumps. He intended to put a double loop on the end of his 4T/3T combo because he had read the rule book and knew that it was worth an extra point and a half -- but in the execurion it didn't work out.

    Plushenko worked on his spins and footwork to try to attain higher levels and stronger GOE. And indeed, he did OK in these categories, but others were a little better.

    Takahashi attempted the quad because, having read the manual, he knew that quads are the highest scoring elements. A successful quad was his best strategy to win the gold medal. (As it turned out, this was not such a big risk after all because even with a fall he still won the bronze.)

    Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."

    Everyone did what he could. They all left points on the table for the things they couldn't do. It turned out how it turned out. (Weir was robbed -- should have been fourth. )
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-21-2010 at 10:58 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Hah! Bring him on. I'll throw my Iron Lotus at him (base value, 25.6 points)

    What no one seems to be considering is the possibility that coaching teams -- who eat, live, and breathe competitive figure skating -- do know the rules. I think all skaters do whatever they can to maximize their scoring potential.

    Plushenko front loaded his jumps because that gave him a better chance of landing them before fatigue set in. He did not do transitions between his biggest elements because if he had he might not have been able to complete the jumps. He intended to put a double loop on the end of his 4T/3T combo because he had read the rule book and knew that it was worth an extra point and a half -- but in the execurion it didn't work out.

    Plushenko worked on his spins and footwork to try to attain higher levels and stronger GOE. And indeed, he did OK in these categories, but others were a little better.

    Takahashi attempted the quad because, having read the manual, he knew that quads are the highest scoring elements. A successful quad was his best strategy to win the gold medal. (As it turned out, this was not such a big risk after all because even with a fall he still won the bronze.)

    Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."

    Everyone did what he could. They all left points on the table for the things they couldn't do. It turned out how it turned out. (Weir was robbed -- should have been fourth. )
    Some good points. You are probably right. They all know the rules. From the rules you develop your program/playbook. For some the plan worked for others it did not. They are all great skaters.

    My Tripple Praying Manits will eat your weak Iron Lotus for breakfast!
    Last edited by gfskater; 02-21-2010 at 11:21 AM.

  10. #25
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Hah! Bring him on. I'll throw my Iron Lotus at him (base value, 25.6 points)

    What no one seems to be considering is the possibility that coaching teams -- who eat, live, and breathe competitive figure skating -- do know the rules. I think all skaters do whatever they can to maximize their scoring potential.

    Plushenko front loaded his jumps because that gave him a better chance of landing them before fatigue set in. He did not do transitions between his biggest elements because if he had he might not have been able to complete the jumps. He intended to put a double loop on the end of his 4T/3T combo because he had read the rule book and knew that it was worth an extra point and a half -- but in the execurion it didn't work out.

    Plushenko worked on his spins and footwork to try to attain higher levels and stronger GOE. And indeed, he did OK in these categories, but others were a little better.

    Takahashi attempted the quad because, having read the manual, he knew that quads are the highest scoring elements. A successful quad was his best strategy to win the gold medal. (As it turned out, this was not such a big risk after all because even with a fall he still won the bronze.)

    Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."

    Everyone did what he could. They all left points on the table for the things they couldn't do. It turned out how it turned out. (Weir was robbed -- should have been fourth. )
    This is a very nice post, and you are right about Plushenko. It's unfortunate that his sour grapes routine distracts a little from the fact that he did have a very good skate and that his comeback at age 27 was amazing. I don't mind him suggesting that maybe the quad should be worth more and that it's too bad more men aren't doing them. I actually agree with him a little. Just wish he was a bit more diplomatic in saying it. Or better yet let his skating speak for itself. Plushenko sort of made a statement with his LP. A LOT of people wish more men skated like that these days. And that's respectable.

    With all this debate, I went back to watch the Salt Lake City competition. Plushenko and Yagudin were superb. Goebel was great and he did one more quad than the two Russians. But Plushenko and Yagudin were breaktaking especially Yagudin.

    I enjoyed their three skates better than the ones I saw Tuesday. I think Plushenko came back in part because he honestly believes men's skating was not what it once was. And I think, for some fans, he proved it even though he wasn't nearly as good as he was in 02. So I do wish COP could be tweaked somehow ... But it is what it is and Evan won. And despite all the macho talk from Plushenko there is no blame or shame in that and there never will be. He's a gold medalist forever.
    Last edited by Layfan; 02-21-2010 at 11:18 AM.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."

    Everyone did what he could. They all left points on the table for the things they couldn't do. It turned out how it turned out. (Weir was robbed -- should have been fourth. )
    I agree about Johnny. And Johnny has some of the most loyal fans - yet their reaction has been pretty classy.
    I wonder if sometimes fans don't take a lead from the skater. Johnny not only skated extremely well but handled himself very well.

    I have not been his fan before but admit I enjoyed both of his programs. I respect the way he handled himself and i find myself liking Johnny more and more. I do think he should have been 4th but I think Johnny was skating for a different reason in Vancouver.

    I am happy that he was satisfied with his programs and that he will leave Vancouver feeling good about his skating and himself.

  12. #27
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zowie View Post
    I thought that even attempting a quad was worth a lot of points. How many points is it worth?
    Takahashi's problem was not that he fell, but that he did not complete the rotations before he fell. So his attempt was scored the same a a fall on a triple toe.

    If you compete the revolutions, but then fall, it goes like this.

    Base vaule for a 4T = 9.8. Minus three GOE (factored) = -4.8. Fall deduction = -1.0. Grand total = 4.0 (exactly the same as for a successful triple toe.)

    If you get dinged for an underrotaion but do not fall, then you get (typically)

    Base value for a triple = 4.0, minus two GOE. Total = 2.0.

    But if you underrotate and fall you get:

    Base value = 4.0, minus three GOE = -3.0, fall deduction = -1.0. Total = 0. This is what Takahashi got for his effort.

    So the rule is -- it's OK to fall, but you better not come up more than 90 degrees short on the rotations.
    Last edited by Mathman; 02-21-2010 at 11:19 AM.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    The biggest lesson I learned from the mens' event is that Daisuke Takahashi would be the 2010 Olympic champion if he had landed his opening quad jump in the LP.
    Or possibly if he had done a different combo there instead. That fall got him nothing apparently. Shame.

  14. #29
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    Has anyone watched the nbcolympics video showing the base value of each element then the value Evan got after? It was pretty cool to see it presented that way.

    http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/[color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color]...eks+free+skate

  15. #30
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    OP-you have it dead right.

    How can people complain about the results when the rules are published for any average Joe to read, some skaters follow them to the letter and are rewarded, others completely ignore them and aren't rewarded? Evan Lysacek read his copy of the CoP, made sure the program was choreographed accordingly, and skated clean. Other people completely front-end loaded the program, had absolutely no flow to their movements or transitions, and expected that jumps will carry them through. That's ridiculous.

    Evan added up his strengths and weaknesses and designed his program accordingly. I do not think there will be an asterisk beside his name in the Almanac saying, "not a true champion."
    Absolutely agree!

    I've had so many friends non-skating knowledgeable ask about the men's event because of all the hype. The thing is, it was fair according to the CoP. Don't like the CoP? That's a different thing entirely.

    Only in skating could someone think that the published rules wouldn't be used to determine the game.

    I want to see CoP changed for next time. I want to see skating progress technically but I'm extremely tired of the whole Plushenko was robbed business. Can he read? Then he has no one to blame for his silver but himself.

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