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Thread: An important lesson for skaters, know the rules.

  1. #31
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    How can you support that the CoP system helped an overall skater win, when the two athletes were tied in the programm components??

    Lysacek beat PLushenko in the TES and that is a complete joke with his mediocre jumps which shouldn't have gained a single point of GoP.
    Plushy beat Lysacek in skating skills, presentation and interpretation.
    He had better jumps. He was wrongfully deprived of his gold medal and that's the failure of the system.
    Now not only the judges can manipulate te results, but also mediocre athletes (like Lysacek or that joke Chan) can manipulate the judges by creating a clever CoP friendly programm to earn medals.
    I FEEL LIKE THROWING UP.
    This system has to be changed immediately, or else is an insult to the great skaters of past and present who risk everything to be the best.
    Shame on u ISU, but you cannot play games with our intelligence

  2. #32
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    I think we skating fans were the most robbed of all. Too many better skaters didn't skate up to their potential the way we all know they can, thus allowing a more inferior skater to win just like last season's Worlds. Oh well, life goes on, I'm just not happy about this result. That's life, whatever will be, will be. On to the next mens' competition, 2010 Worlds, where hopefully we will see better skating!

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by nghtvsn View Post
    Has anyone watched the nbcolympics video showing the base value of each element then the value Evan got after? It was pretty cool to see it presented that way.

    http://www.nbcolympics.com/video/[color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color][color=red]*[/color]...eks+free+skate
    The only prolem I have with something like that is they don't show why each element gained or lost value.

    You can see all the scores for all the skaters on ISU. It shows why each element was rated. You do need to know what some of the symbols mean for example e means wrong edge, < means under rotated. All the tops skaters had downgrades and upgrades. Interesting that Evgeni had the least number of negative GOEs (1) I would say the juges were quite generous to Evgeni based on some of the air positions and landings I saw. A miracle he did not fall on a few of them.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf

  4. #34
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sk8n Mama View Post
    OP-you have it dead right.

    How can people complain about the results when the rules are published for any average Joe to read, some skaters follow them to the letter and are rewarded, others completely ignore them and aren't rewarded? Evan Lysacek read his copy of the CoP, made sure the program was choreographed accordingly, and skated clean. Other people completely front-end loaded the program, had absolutely no flow to their movements or transitions, and expected that jumps will carry them through. That's ridiculous.


    Absolutely agree!

    I've had so many friends non-skating knowledgeable ask about the men's event because of all the hype. The thing is, it was fair according to the CoP. Don't like the CoP? That's a different thing entirely.

    Only in skating could someone think that the published rules wouldn't be used to determine the game.

    I want to see CoP changed for next time. I want to see skating progress technically but I'm extremely tired of the whole Plushenko was robbed business. Can he read? Then he has no one to blame for his silver but himself.
    In fairness to Plushenko, I think his program would have won the night if he had skated it a little better. His technical base value was higher than Evan's, I believe. He made just enough mistakes on the technical side, however. And he didn't take advantage of COP as much as he could have later in his program. It was a strategy, though. Just like Evan's strategy was to leave out the quad but skate an very difficult program otherwise. Evan could not afford to make mistakes, or at least not too many. Turns out, Plushenko couldn't afford to mistakes either. His hubris was in believing that just because he had a 4-3 he COULD afford to make mistakes. Not that I think he made those mistakes on purpose but he apparently believed once he had finished skating that he could get away with them.

    What's killing him is that he did his best element well and Evan didn't have a quad. While I sympathize with the idea that more men should be doing quads, Plushenko is acting like it's the first time someone who did one quad more than the other guy lost an Olympics. He should remember Salt Lake City when he defeated Goebel for the silver even though Goebel did one quad more than Plush.

  5. #35
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastasi1212 View Post
    How can you support that the CoP system helped an overall skater win, when the two athletes were tied in the programm components??

    Lysacek beat PLushenko in the TES and that is a complete joke with his mediocre jumps which shouldn't have gained a single point of GoP.
    Plushy beat Lysacek in skating skills, presentation and interpretation.
    He had better jumps. He was wrongfully deprived of his gold medal and that's the failure of the system.
    Now not only the judges can manipulate te results, but also mediocre athletes (like Lysacek or that joke Chan) can manipulate the judges by creating a clever CoP friendly programm to earn medals.
    I FEEL LIKE THROWING UP.
    This system has to be changed immediately, or else is an insult to the great skaters of past and present who risk everything to be the best.
    Shame on u ISU, but you cannot play games with our intelligence
    I don't know what competition you watched but Plushenko's jumps were NOT WELL DONE. Just because he has a reputation as being the best jumper in the world doesn't mean he lived it up to it that night.

    Plushenko may fundamentally be a better skater than Evan. Michelle Kwan was certainly fundamentally a better skater than Sarah Hughes. But Sarah was better than Michelle that night in 02. And Evan did better than Plushenko on Tuesday night.

    What would have made me want to throw up is if they had handed Plushenko the gold just because he's SUPPOSED to have better jumps than Evan and because he's SUPPOSED to win. That kind of judging is what would have taken the fun and excitement out of any competition.

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post

    What's killing him is that he did his best element well and Evan didn't have a quad. While I sympathize with the idea that more men should be doing quads, Plushenko is acting like it's the first time someone who did one quad more than the other guy lost an Olympics. He should remember Salt Lake City when he defeated Goebel for the silver even though Goebel did one quad more than Plush.
    Thanks for pointing that out.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastasi1212 View Post
    How can you support that the CoP system helped an overall skater win, when the two athletes were tied in the programm components??

    Lysacek beat PLushenko in the TES and that is a complete joke with his mediocre jumps which shouldn't have gained a single point of GoP.
    Plushy beat Lysacek in skating skills, presentation and interpretation.
    He had better jumps. He was wrongfully deprived of his gold medal and that's the failure of the system.
    Now not only the judges can manipulate te results, but also mediocre athletes (like Lysacek or that joke Chan) can manipulate the judges by creating a clever CoP friendly programm to earn medals.
    I FEEL LIKE THROWING UP.
    This system has to be changed immediately, or else is an insult to the great skaters of past and present who risk everything to be the best.
    Shame on u ISU, but you cannot play games with our intelligence
    Plushenko's jumps were a mess Thursday night. Did you watch the same program I did? He had URs that were not called. He was given +GoE on jumps that he could barely land. When he skates his best, I agree, he is stronger than Evan. I don't even like Evan's skating! But let's be realistic. Plushenko's skate in the LP was not anything to brag about. He was his own worst enemy in this competition. If he wants to blame someone for not winning the OGM, he should look in the mirror.

    On the topic of min-maxing points, I agree that the system is flawed. I don't want skaters focusing on every turn of their blades during a program more than they focus on interpreting music, and skating that is beautiful and artistic. I am not happy with the way things are headed in skating today. But I will say that I still think the two can be combined- knowing the rules, and artistic programs. I think Jeremy proved that with his two programs this year. Unfortunately, he did not skate them well at the Olympics. If he had, I think he could have taken home the OG.
    Last edited by Dark-Eyes; 02-21-2010 at 12:26 PM.

  8. #38
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    "If he had, I think he could have taken home the OG. "

    I am so sick of the if's... That headcase Patrick Chan claimed that he would have won IF he had delivered a clean programm.
    What the hell are they thinking?
    ( I am stilll trying to keep myself from throwing up)

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark-Eyes View Post
    Plushenko's jumps were a mess Thursday night. Did you watch the same program I did? He had URs that were not called. He was given +GoE on jumps that he could barely land. When he skates his best, I agree, he is stronger than Evan. I don't even like Evan's skating! But let's be realistic. Plushenko's skate in the LP was not anything to brag about. He was his own worst enemy in this competition. If he wants to blame someone for not winning the OGM, he should look in the mirror.

    On the topic of min-maxing points, I agree that the system is flawed. I don't want skaters focusing on every turn of their blades during a program more than they focus on interpreting music, and skating that is beautiful and artistic. I am not happy with the way things are headed in skating today. But I will say that I still think the two can be combined- knowing the rules, and artistic programs. I think Jeremy proved that with his two programs this year. Unfortunately, he did not skate them well at the Olympics. If he had, I think he could have taken home the OG.
    Totally agree, Scott Hamilton called him a cack (don't know what that means) but most of his jumps were downright scary looking. His quad-triple was so leaning in the air, it was not a thing of beauty, I've seen better ones by Verner and Schultheiss. I don't know why he's complaining about silver, I thought he deserved bronze at best. Evan is not my favorite skater but his jumps were smooth and steady and even though he is a bit boring, he is artistic compared to Plushenko.

  10. #40
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastasi1212 View Post
    "If he had, I think he could have taken home the OG. "

    I am so sick of the if's... That headcase Patrick Chan claimed that he would have won IF he had delivered a clean programm.
    What the hell are they thinking?
    ( I am stilll trying to keep myself from throwing up)
    Your arguments seem to amount to Plushenko being unbeatable no matter what he does on the ice and the other skaters shouldn't even have bothered showing up.

    Maybe Plushenko's fans should just set up up a competition where he goes out and skates alone and it's one big love fest whether he trips all over himself or not.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    Totally agree, Scott Hamilton called him a cack (don't know what that means) but most of his jumps were downright scary looking. His quad-triple was so leaning in the air, it was not a thing of beauty, I've seen better ones by Verner and Schultheiss. I don't know why he's complaining about silver, I thought he deserved bronze at best. Evan is not my favorite skater but his jumps were smooth and steady and even though he is a bit boring, he is artistic compared to Plushenko.
    He called him a "cat". Because no matter how far off his jumps are in the air, he manages to land on his skates.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Your arguments seem to amount to Plushenko being unbeatable no matter what he does on the ice and the other skaters shouldn't even have bothered showing up.

    Maybe Plushenko's fans should just set up up a competition where he goes out and skates alone and it's one big love fest whether he trips all over himself or not.
    I guess the problem of the rest is that he almost never trips all over himself, like the likes of Chan and Abbott did when pressured by high competition...

  13. #43
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastasi1212 View Post
    I guess the problem of the rest is that he almost never trips all over himself, like the likes of Chan and Abbott did when pressured by high competition...
    Yeah, you're reinforcing my point. Thanks.

  14. #44
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Hah! Bring him on. I'll throw my Iron Lotus at him (base value, 25.6 points)
    ...
    you can do Iron Lotus? wow + 33 Goe= 58.6
    Thanx for message it helped a lot. After the calm of the shock,next stage in my mind I was blaming Mishin and his bad design of a program who burried the skater, now I blame none cause maybe Plushy could not do more, he is not as in 2002, he has knee problems, he was nervous, didnt have the skate of his life, he was more human than the robot he is accussed of, voila... he is a grandpa after all. i love him anyway when he skates despite his flaws.

    Nevertheless some marks were a joke, like Kozuka and Weir. Imagine smaller margins on them also to decide medals and them losing it by such bad scoring. Weir had the skate of his life. And edge calls were kept selectively privelege for some. Looks like technical has now the power over judges. That is sort of upseting unless you decide to watch competitions as galas from now on. That was a good advice someone gave me, I ll try that.

  15. #45
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    now I blame none cause maybe Plushy could not do more, he is not as in 2002
    That's it I think. He's one of the all time greats but his technical peak was about 2001--04 and hasn't ever quite gotten back to that plateau. That's normal, pushing the jump limits is a young skater's game. One problem he had taking time off was that the sport evolved in different directions than he expected or wanted. Although quads are less important than they once were the technical limits have been pushed in spins and footwork. Even the best spins and footwork from 2004 wouldn't be competitive today and performing Lysacek's jump layout at the same time as level four spins and footwork is an amazing athletic feat that no one before 2004 could do.

    IF he still wants to compete I'd say his spins and footwork need drastic overhauls (and he'd need to get more jumps into the 2nd half of the program).

    Final weird thoguht: His Vancouver LP would have easily won him the gold in 2006 and his 2006 lp would have easily won in Vancouver.

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