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Thread: Crazy results in mens and ladies......

  1. #1
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    Crazy results in mens and ladies......

    Cup of China

    Ladies


    Result
    Pl. Name Nation Total Score SP FS
    1 Elena LIASHENKO UKR 153.54 7 1
    2 Yoshie ONDA JPN 148.79 3 2
    3 Fumie SUGURI JPN 143.67 1 5
    4 Ann Patrice McDONOUGH USA 139.97 2 6
    5 Tatiana BASOVA RUS 138.03 5 4
    6 Amber CORWIN USA 133.97 6 7
    7 Viktoria VOLCHKOVA RUS 132.65 4 9
    8 Dan FANG CHN 126.15 8 8
    9 Jennifer ROBINSON CAN 125.96 10 3
    10 Yan LIU CHN 116.20 9 10
    11 Anastasia GIMAZETDINOVA UZB 94.83 11 11


    Men


    Result
    Pl. Name Nation Total Score SP FS
    1 Timothy GOEBEL USA 205.30 2 1
    2 Brian JOUBERT FRA 199.84 4 2
    3 Chengjiang LI CHN 196.24 3 3
    4 Song GAO CHN 185.90 1 8
    5 Emanuel SANDHU CAN 185.23 7 4
    6 Ilia KLIMKIN RUS 183.80 8 5
    7 Nicholas YOUNG CAN 178.87 6 7
    8 Scott SMITH USA 175.06 10 6
    9 Min ZHANG CHN 173.79 5 10
    10 Andrejs VLASCENKO GER 171.17 9 9
    11 Vincent RESTENCOURT FRA 130.78 11 11


    You'd never see those results with the old system eg. Jen Robinson finishing third in the long after a 10th place in the short, and Viktoria Volchkova finishing 9th in the long after a 4th in the short, and Elena Liashenko coming from 7th place to win the event.....crazy! This is how events should be judged, however.....as if the short and long programs are two completely seperate events. Sure makes things interesting.

  2. #2
    Forum translator Ptichka's Avatar
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    Unbelievable! I'm just upset that the ISU does not have any recaps of either day 2 or day 3 of Cup of China. The only thing I can say from looking at the detailed scores is that no one did very well.

    In ladies FS, Elena did (according to the marks) a decent 3lz+2t, a not-so-good 3f, a decent 3t, a really messed up 3f+2t+sequence, a not-so-good 3lz, and a not-so-good 2A. None of her program componenets rise above 6.55!

    Even in the men's FS, looking at Tim -- a not-so-good 3A+2T+3Lo; an OK 3F (Duh, he could probably do a 3F in his sleep!); a ok-but-not-too-good 4T+2T; a totally unsuccessful 3A (all judges gave it -3); an OK 3T; a pretty bad 3Lz. He also managed to get a 1 point deduction for time violation! The program components weren't too bad, though, ranging from 6.7 for PE to 7.2 for SS.

    Ultimately, even though all this movement in placements is really exciting, I guess it is just indicative of very poor skates by top skaters.

  3. #3
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Thanks for the results, Rain. Wow, this is going to be a crazy season. The men's event, though, settled down to give final results about what we expected (exchange Klimkin and Gao and it might have been predicted this way.) Nice result for Joubert.

    In the ladies, I'm sorry that my girl AP missed the podium. But I am not surprised to see that the veteran Liashenko was able to score well under the CoP. She has good jumps and strong elements across the board. IIRC Golden Skate poster TVDragon scored the ladies 2003 Worlds competition by the CoP, just for fun, and Liashenko came out on top!

    Mathman
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-08-2003 at 01:21 PM.

  4. #4
    Michelle Kwan Fan
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    I wished for AP to make the podium too. At least Fumie got bronze, after Elena Liashenko's gold and Yoshie Onda's silver. Congratulations to them and to Tim as well for winning the men's event. From what I heard, he did an awesome job skating his LP.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I think the one thing fans of figure skating will say is that Elena Liashenko has no problem doing every trick in the book (high scores for technical) but her Presentation? Well, if it's based on technique, she does execute every jump and spin with text book technique. All those other Presentation factors? Certainly questionable for telegraphing her jumps but, hey, we haven't seen it yet.

    This contest is a dilly. JenRo in 3rd place long! AP with 6th in LP; Fumie with 5th in LP, Volchova in 9th LP.:sheesh: I'll be looking forward to this comp with explanations by Dick and Peggy. I'm also interested in Basova. Maybe Russia has a genuine lady competitor coming up the ranks. I hope so. Also nice going Yoshie.

    The boys' top three results are no surprises but Ptichka's analysis of the results (and thanks Ptichka, btw) has me interested in looking at this whole competition. I'm beginning to think all Men's events are never obvious.

    Let's hope ABC will cover more than the top tier skaters.

    Joe

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    The Ladies competition at Cup of China must have been a knock-down, drag out SPLATFEST. With all due respect to Elena Liashenko, compare her Cup of China Total and FS scores to the top 4 finishers at the previous two competitions:

    197.60 total 126.48 FS COHEN SC #1
    197.35 total 130.89 FS COHEN SA #1
    182.19 total 123.99 FS ARAKAWA SC #2
    178.77 total 120.09 FS KIRK SA #2
    172.39 total 113.37 FS ARAKAWA SA #3
    165.22 total 107.60 FS SEBESTYEN SC #3
    162.59 total 98.69 FS OTA SC #4
    156.95 total 102.29 FS CORWIN SA #4

    153.54 total 102.36 FS LIASHENKO CC #1

    Unfortunately for Elena, this was her NON-SCORING competition. She goes on to Russia and Japan, where the competition will be somewhat tougher.

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    Originally posted by chuckm
    The Ladies competition at Cup of China must have been a knock-down, drag out SPLATFEST. With all due respect to Elena Liashenko, compare her Cup of China Total and FS scores to the top 4 finishers at the previous two competitions:

    197.60 total 126.48 FS COHEN SC #1
    197.35 total 130.89 FS COHEN SA #1
    182.19 total 123.99 FS ARAKAWA SC #2
    178.77 total 120.09 FS KIRK SA #2
    172.39 total 113.37 FS ARAKAWA SA #3
    165.22 total 107.60 FS SEBESTYEN SC #3
    162.59 total 98.69 FS OTA SC #4
    156.95 total 102.29 FS CORWIN SA #4

    153.54 total 102.36 FS LIASHENKO CC #1

    Unfortunately for Elena, this was her NON-SCORING competition. She goes on to Russia and Japan, where the competition will be somewhat tougher.
    But as some posters pointed out earlier that at Cup Of China judges might got wind from ISU, the scores lower than the SA, SC in general.

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    What chaotic results for the ladies! Elena Liashenko winning a Grand Prix event? What a weird new world. She does have wonderful jumps and an overall fine technical base, but I just don't find her exciting or riveting. But, I do respect her for trying so hard for so long. Good for her! Poor Anne-Patrice, I wanted her to win a medal. I'm sure she'll fight back.

  9. #9
    Gold Medalist
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    Hey all, havent posted here in a while....

    Well, CRAZY results!

    But if you notice that Yoshie was behind Liashenko by roughly 5 points overall, and look at the DETAILED resultshttp://www.isufs.org/results/coc2003..._FP_scores.pdf

    You will see that Yoshie had ZERO points for here triple toe and double axel at the end for the Zayak rule and the number of allowed jumping passes. Since the base of the triple toe is 4.5 and the double axel is 3.3, it totals up a base of 7.8 that could have been added to her score. If she had put that triple toe in a sequence or combo w/ the triple done RIGHT before that, the double axel would have earned points and she would have won since she wouldn't get penalized fo the zayak rule and for the number of allowed jumps.
    Then again, according to the detailed scores, she had a 1.60 deducted from the first triple toe, which probably caused her to be unable to put the two triple toes together costing her the gold.

    Well, just my observations....

  10. #10
    Keeper of Michelle's Nose berthes ghost's Avatar
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    Elena Liashenko winning a Grand Prix event? What a weird new world.
    She won 98 Skate Canada

    I'm starting to think that poor Elena should be nominated in the "Most underrated skaters" thread.

  11. #11
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    Originally posted by berthes ghost
    I'm starting to think that poor Elena should be nominated in the "Most underrated skaters" thread.
    ITA.

  12. #12
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I like Liashenkos's skating a lot. But somehow, to me, her performances add up to something less than the sum of its parts. That's why I think that she will profit from the CoP, which rewards "parts."

    Other skaters either bring the wow! factor (Sasha Cohen) or else capture your heart (Yukina Ota), even when they make mistakes.

    Mathman

  13. #13
    Go NJ Devils
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    Originally posted by mzheng
    But as some posters pointed out earlier that at Cup Of China judges might got wind from ISU, the scores lower than the SA, SC in general.
    That's true of the presentation scores, but not as far as I can see from the televised programs in the technical scores. This might explain why Liashenko has the 6th highest LP TES in the first three competitions vs. the 11th highest TCS.

    If you look at her overall technical scores, she received exactly one "2" from any judge, in her Level 1 straightline footwork. Her 3L/2T combo and 3S received mostly 0's and 1's. She seemed to have botched the 3F/2T sequence, which may have been a saved combo attempt. It seems to me that she's probably being dinged for the telegraph on her toe jumps, given the number of -1's on her 3T, 3L, and 3F. Overall, with 51. 48 points, she didn't make her base score of 52.2. (Only Robinson and Corwin did --marginally -- in their CC LP's.)

    Many of the expected technical powerhouses/jumpers either haven't skated well (Volchkova, Kostner, Suguri -- looks like she had a miserable LP -- Sokolova, Onda, McDonough) or havent skated yet (Slutskaya). When that happens, it looks like a consistent, well-respected veteran with solid skills can pull off a victory.

  14. #14
    Arm Chair Skate Fan show 42's Avatar
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    It's sort of nice not knowing whose going to win until the competition is actually over (what a wild concept)......42

  15. #15
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Originally posted by Mathman
    I like Liashenkos's skating a lot. But somehow, to me, her performances add up to something less than the sum of its parts. That's why I think that she will profit from the CoP, which rewards "parts."
    I like this quote. I think it sums up the CoP very well, and is a compelling reason why the CoP is inferior to the 6.0 system. Under the CoP, judges can collectively mark a skater higher than each judge individually would have placed that skater in the competition. CoP is equal to not seeing the forest for the trees.

    Originally posted by rain
    You'd never see those results with the old system eg. Jen Robinson finishing third in the long after a 10th place in the short, and Viktoria Volchkova finishing 9th in the long after a 4th in the short, and Elena Liashenko coming from 7th place to win the event.....crazy! This is how events should be judged, however.....as if the short and long programs are two completely seperate events.
    I think you're giving too much credit where it's NOT due. Judges always marked the two phases of the competition independently of each other. However, under the ordinal system, a skater's movement within the system was limited by factored placements, so that overall movement in the final placements wasn't as dramatic as any difference in placements for a skater in each phase of competition.

    Here is something to keep in mind, from Sandra Loosemore's skating FAQ:
    Sometimes the rules can be confusing or counterintuitive, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're "unfair". The confusing situations generally arise only when there is no clear consensus among the judges anyway, and any other way of computing the results would have a different set of flaws.

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