Ladies' LP

seniorita said:

I mean last 3 Olys the fav didnt win the gold.

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In fact, 4. There was Oksana Baiul 1994, when Nancy Kerrigan was the favourite. Nobody seems to remember her.

The only reason why this didn't turn out to be a judging scandal was because Yuna herself went out there and put on a performance that deserves gold. The judges were there to make sure that even if she put on a mediocre performance, she was still going to get gold.

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No, I understand that you're saying that the judges would have given it to her no matter how she skated and I'm asking on what you base that statement. If they held her up in one portion of the event, you might have some basis for a statement like that but it seems to be just coming out of nowhere or just your own complete personal supposition. How in the world would this have been a judging scandal? You don't know that had Yu-Na had mistakes that Mao wouldn't have won. The fact is, none of us have any clue what the judges would have done had the skaters performed differently.

Sk8n Mama said:

No, I understand that you're saying that the judges would have given it to her no matter how she skated and I'm asking on what you base that statement. If they held her up in one portion of the event, you might have some basis for a statement like that but it seems to be just coming out of nowhere or just your own complete personal supposition. How in the world would this have been a judging scandal? You don't know that had Yu-Na had mistakes that Mao wouldn't have won. The fact is, none of us have any clue what the judges would have done had the skaters performed differently.

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Well, the protocols are out already and Yuna got nearly 18 points on GOEs alone, and I think I am not alone in thinking that GOEs are subjective. Even with a great skate, that's a very high number. Also, I am not alone in asserting that PCS is determined by reputation.

Please, please do remember that I am not saying Yuna doesn't deserve gold. She completely deserves it because of the performance SHE gave.

Morning everyone! Just saw the Today Show and they had Joannie on. What a brave young woman! Glad she's got a mother figure in Manon to keep her in check in this tough time in her life. I'm sure Therese was very pleased of her daughter's performance last night. Also Rachael and Mirai was on too. They're just happy about their performances.

I am wondering... where do you rank Yuna's LP with other winners? I think it's among the best skate from a winner in a very long time.

hurrah said:

Well, the protocols are out already and Yuna got nearly 18 points on GOEs alone, and I think I am not alone in thinking that GOEs are subjective. Even with a great skate, that's a very high number. Also, I am not alone in asserting that PCS is determined by reputation.

Please, please do remember that I am not saying Yuna doesn't deserve gold. She completely deserves it because of the performance SHE gave.

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You have a point. Both GOE and PCS are subjective. I think Mirai's performance was the second best (if not the best) but her PCS doesn't reflect that because her reputation isn't as strong as the other top contenders.

TT_Fin said:

In fact, 4. There was Oksana Baiul 1994, when Nancy Kerrigan was the favourite. Nobody seems to remember her.

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Oh sorry, i didnt forget but it is more like I was dressing the Barbie back then, I haven't watched that Olys

* actually i had a barbie with a swan dress

Thank-you for clarifying, now I get your point. I don't agree with the fact that she didn't deserve the high GOE, though. Those jumps were smooth and flowy. So much so I yelled out from my couch after one of them, "If I'm the judge, I'm giving her huge GOE for that one!" but you are right that skating is subjective and where I see that she did deserve the big marks, you didn't and I'm fine with that Potato, potahto. I don't think there would have been a controversy, though. Had she had a few ice wipes, the program wouldn't have had the same flow & emotion and the PCS would probably have been lower. I have faith in these judges and thought they did pretty well. The CoP still needs tweaking but without it, D/W and V/M could never have made the podium. In the 6.0 system, they would have been ignored. In the 6.0 system, PLushy and Mao would have won based on the jumps only and that beautiful Yu-Na skate would have been silver. I don't want us to go back to that. There will always be an element of subjectivity to skating so long as we want it to be artistic & it's the artistic that makes it beautiful & unique, and not just athletic. I hate Picasso, I prefer Monet. Someone else might prefer a Kandinsky, which I think looks like paint splatter my 6-yr-old could do. Know what I mean? The CoP needs some changes but, all in all, it's a far better system than 6.0.

hurrah said:

Completely agree with the placements, no contestation whatsoever. However, the issue of GOE as being too subjective and having too much influence was proven rather than disproven I think.

Regarding Mao's choices, I think that she had really no other choice. Two years ago, CoP suddenly started telling her she couldn't do 3-3s. And she saw that GoEs were only going to be given to people who had a speedy and powerful style. If she was going to have any chance at gold, she had to focus on her triple-axel, despite the fact that, under the current system, even doing such a special element as the triple-axel doesn't have the dividends it should.

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ITA. CoP changed, and she thought focusing on the 3A is her only chance, it is risky but she knows even if she does not medal, but if she lands the 3A in the sp, she will be making history, and if she lands all 3, definitely that will be a feat that no one can achieve in a long time. So overall I don't blame her strategy. And I really believe that the 3A is her favorite jump, so she went for what she loves best

Mao has improved hugely over these past two years. She's physically much more stronger, and still improving every day. her spiral improved again, and even though the camera work didn't let me see clearly, I was amazed to see that she had a noticable delay on her flip!

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I have seen Mao adjusted and made improvement in small things from one competition to the next.

The next hurdle will be the lutz, and I really hope that she will have/already has a jump coach that can help her feel fully secure about her jump technique.

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I hope she has a jump coach, besides the lutz, I hope she really gets a sal also

I really wonder if Mao will part from Tarasova? I didn't really like Bells as a program, but I completely understood where it was coming from. Tarasova has also made other programs for Mao that are my favorites. I do think that Tarasova understands the beauty of Mao's style and how to showcase it well in programs. What I do think (and this is so completely a figment of my imagination) is that Tat did not understand how to interact with Mao to bring out the best in her in competition. I used to watch Tarasova glaring at Mao and wind her up saying 'just do it' right before her performance and think 'God, that is the worst thing to do to a girl like Mao.' However, at the Olympics, I was glad to see that Mao was just left alone to collect herself before going out into the rink, and I think this was what Mao needs to gather herself together. And so I think that maybe Tat finally got the hang of 'Mao'. I wouldn't mind if Mao continued to be coached byTat for a while longer. I think Tat could come up with masterpiece programs for Mao.

But anyway, this is all totally my own imagining, so maybe they'll part. It may also be that things like Tat's health, distance, will lead to other arrangements.

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I don't object to Mao keeping TT. I think Mao can learn from Evan, if you can't beat someone in the air, beat her on the ice. I think TT can help Mao to improve her step sequence, spirls, spins etc., If she can get level 4 on all of the above, + improving on overall skating skills and speed etc, she has a good chance in 2014. That is of course she fixes her lutz, learn the sal etc. She used to be very insecure with the 3T, and she improved on that. So I think she has the potential to do greater things, it is important to get the right team/ coach etc. BTW, is the Japanese federation helping at all? It seems like they have too many talented skaters and their attention is spread a little thin.

Sk8n Mama said:

Thank-you, Tinman. Please let us know when you make it to Oz and get your heart. While you're there, get the scarecrow treatment too.

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Good one! Good thing I fell asleep when the trolls came in!

Sk8n Mama said:

Thank-you for clarifying, now I get your point. I don't agree with the fact that she didn't deserve the high GOE, though. Those jumps were smooth and flowy. So much so I yelled out from my couch after one of them, "If I'm the judge, I'm giving her huge GOE for that one!" but you are right that skating is subjective and where I see that she did deserve the big marks, you didn't and I'm fine with that Potato, potahto. I don't think there would have been a controversy, though. Had she had a few ice wipes, the program wouldn't have had the same flow & emotion and the PCS would probably have been lower. I have faith in these judges and thought they did pretty well. The CoP still needs tweaking but without it, D/W and V/M could never have made the podium. In the 6.0 system, they would have been ignored. In the 6.0 system, PLushy and Mao would have won based on the jumps only and that beautiful Yu-Na skate would have been silver. I don't want us to go back to that. There will always be an element of subjectivity to skating so long as we want it to be artistic & it's the artistic that makes it beautiful & unique, and not just athletic. I hate Picasso, I prefer Monet. Someone else might prefer a Kandinsky, which I think looks like paint splatter my 6-yr-old could do. Know what I mean? The CoP needs some changes but, all in all, it's a far better system than 6.0.

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Well, I think the incentive to change 6.0 was not because the big jumpers won, but because it was considered to be too subjective. If big jumpers were those that had won in 6.0, Ito Midori would have gotten more gold medals.

Anyway, I think CoP has the potential to be a better system than 6.0, but I'm not seeing much difference in terms of subjectivity/objectivity. Except now, it's easier to see how subjective judging can be.

I am wondering... where do you rank Yuna's LP with other winners? I think it's among the best skate from a winner in a very long time.

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So hard to say. I'm giving an opinion here without looking element to element. Tara Lipinski was great but I don't know in CoP what the PCS would have been like for her. The programs were cutesy. They suited her but I'm not sure they'd be considered high in the PCS dept now. MK could have scored high in PCS. Would she have beaten Lipinski in Nagano in CoP? Sarah Hughes would not have been higher than Yu-na, IMO. I would not rate Okasana Baiul's higher. Kristi Yamaguchi had an exceptional skate in 92 (with triple-triples!).

Anyway, I think CoP has the potential to be a better system than 6.0, but I'm not seeing much difference in terms of subjectivity/objectivity. Except now, it's easier to see how subjective judging can be.

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I'm sorry, we obviously have very different opinions (not that there's anything wrong with that). When I look at the protocols and see what the judges actually did, I think it's far more fair and far less subjective. I do not feel there was subjectivity in Yu-Nas GOES, as per my comprehension of the CoP. Let's say, for argument's sake, we remove GOES. What incentive is there for the skaters to do the jumps properly if we only gave them a tick in the box for a completed element. All winter sports with "elements", that aren't just races or games, are judged on the quality of the elements done (moguls, aerials, ski jumping...) The only way to make it completely unsubjective is to remove the artistic side of it completely because art is, inherently, subjective. But then skating would lose what makes it so enjoyable that Millions of people worldwide who know nothing about figure skating tune in to watch it, making it one of, if not the, premiere event of the winter Olympics. To me, if the ISU were ever to kill the artistic component, it would be "the night they killed figure skating."

Sk8n Mama said:

So hard to say. I'm giving an opinion here without looking element to element. Tara Lipinski was great but I don't know in CoP what the PCS would have been like for her. The programs were cutesy. They suited her but I'm not sure they'd be considered high in the PCS dept now. MK could have scored high in PCS. Would she have beaten Lipinski in Nagano in CoP? Sarah Hughes would not have been higher than Yu-na, IMO. I would not rate Okasana Baiul's higher. Kristi Yamaguchi had an exceptional skate in 92 (with triple-triples!).

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I love Shizuka's program too

So many mixed feelings about last night's skating. The final outcome was predicted, no real surprises, but I'm happy with that and the top 3 deserve to be there. Not to take away anything from Yuna's perfect skate as well as Mao's courage for attempting and landing those 3A and Joannie's solid skate, the whole night was somewhat anti-climatic, no real drama. I'm finding more and more I have to look at the placement and not the score because it gets so damn frustrating. I wasn't going to diss skaters or scores, but felt compelled to wonder how in the world does a skater that lands 5 triples that include 2 3T and 2 3Lopps gets 126??? No 3F, not even 2 3Lutz!

I love Shizuka's program too

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How'd I miss her? Of course, Shiza, too

Sk8n Mama said:

I'm sorry, we obviously have very different opinions (not that there's anything wrong with that). When I look at the protocols and see what the judges actually did, I think it's far more fair and far less subjective. I do not feel there was subjectivity in Yu-Nas GOES, as per my comprehension of the CoP. Let's say, for argument's sake, we remove GOES. What incentive is there for the skaters to do the jumps properly if we only gave them a tick in the box for a completed element. All winter sports with "elements", that aren't just races or games, are judged on the quality of the elements done (moguls, aerials, ski jumping...) The only way to make it completely unsubjective is to remove the artistic side of it completely because art is, inherently, subjective. But then skating would lose what makes it so enjoyable that Millions of people worldwide who know nothing about figure skating tune in to watch it, making it one of, if not the, premiere event of the winter Olympics. To me, if the ISU were ever to kill the artistic component, it would be "the night they killed figure skating."

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I really don't feel like going into specific details to contest whether or not Yuna's and other skaters GOEs can be considered to be objectively given. I think other posters here and in other figure skating boards are doing it, so I leave it up to them.

GOEs don't measure artistry. That's more reflected in PCS.

GOEs don't measure artistry. That's more reflected in PCS.

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Thanks. It's my first day watching figure skating after all.:sheesh:

ARipp-I edited that out because I thought it was too snarky. Oh well, it's out there now. Apparently, I'm feeling my oats this morning. Maybe time for a second coffee?

Leonova's interview taken after FS:
http://en.alena-leonova.ru/publ/ale...can_one_be_after_such_a_harsh_defeat/1-1-0-28

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Op_2klX3Nfs

Video of Mao's interview. Can anyone translate? Her tears of disappointment just breaks my heart.

Sorry if this has already been posted.

I'm thrilled and totally over the moon with the exceptional night of skating. Kim blew me away with her smooth, elegant, and sophisticated performance....compounded by her extraordinary jumps...I have never seen any lady land all the jumps like that. To me, it wasn't about the jump content...it was about the whole package and delivery. Rochette...wow, I have never seen her skate so well and with so much pride and pressure...my heart goes out to her. Asada...what a gutsy & historical performance...I'm so proud of her. Mirai's performance was delightful...to me, it was worth a gold in any other Olympics or Worlds. But boy, I don't think we would ever match Kim's performance from last night...imo, the best Olympic FP performance by any lady in history!

This was figure skating history in the making. I don't remember an Olympic ladies event as well-skated as this since 1998, and even then there were falls. I expected the ladies competition to become a splatfest, at most, underwhelming, but it happened to be the most exciting and fulfilling. The final flight... blew my mind away. It was an extreme treat to watch Yu-na and Mao back-to-back twice in a row. This juxtaposition not only highlighted each skater's strengths (and weaknesses) in context, but also inspired me and convinced me that CoP skating is definitely getting somewhere. Their aggregate talent is mind-boggling, and I hope both of them stay in competition so that the rivalry can continue. It's a rivalry for the books, reminiscent of the Battle of the Brians and the Yagudin vs. Plushenko showdowns. I'm not even going to bother looking through the protocols (which I absolutely love to do, as I'm a nitpicker) because I know everyone skated like a dream.

Yu-na: She's simply sublime. She may have been emotionally reserved, but I think that's the effect she was going for. Gershwin is not music that you leep in joy with. It's not music that reduces you to tears by tugging at your heartstrings. It's sophisticated, poised and understated. It's like a lunar undertow. It's serene. That was one of the best-skated Olympic performances ever. She felt the music. She delivered the whole package. She was a staggering giant on ice (she had presence). She did all this in spite of all the pressure. When Yu-na cried, I cried with her because I could feel her finally putting down all the burdens that had pulled her down. She lost the tethers of a country waiting in anticipation and a hype building around her when she got on the ice and floated through her program. Her skating was carefree and ethereal. I thank her for her skate, and I'll forever cherish this moment. She deserved her gold medal, hands down. She also broke the favorite jinx by delivering two clean performances back to back, winning both the SP and LP.

Mao: She is inspirational. Everyone put her down earlier on this season, but she clenched onto the silver medal with indisputable skating and sheer determination. I'm sorry I ever doubted that Mao could land three 3A's in total. Never underestimate the Mighty Mao. I'm so sorry she couldn't deliver a clean program and to hear that she's upset, but despite her mistakes that was a good performance. It was flawed, but better than 4CC. Her SP was much better. That was the first time she really felt that music, moved within it, made it hers, and heaven's sake, it was breathtaking. Every part of it was beyond a doubt stunning, and I lept in joy with her after she had delivered. I could feel her burst of joy all throughout. That she's an amazing skater is beyond a shadow of doubt. I hope Japan appreciates her silver medal.

Joannie: Her SP was a true Olympic moment. No one's eyes were dry when she fell into the arms of her coach. I admire her for her elegant skating, but foremost for her strength. She has inspired millions throughout the world by skating through her pain and delivering in spite of it. I'm so grateful of the Canadian crowd for supporting her every step of the way in her moment of greatest need.

The medalists were truly deserving. I thank them for an amazing night. Kudos to Mirai and Miki as well, but I'm tired. It's 11 here in China, so I'll call it a day.