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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #1
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    Stojko opposes the ladies result

    former Canadian medallist Elvis Stojko, suggested that Kim's marks were too high. He noted that Asada had successfully landed a triple Axel - she's the only woman who executes them regularly in competition - and got fewer marks than Kim's easier triple Lutz.
    The argument is similar to the one over whether American Evan Lysacek should have won the gold medal without having landed a quad like his competitor Evgeni Plushenko.

    "Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

    http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-ska...u+na+path+gold

    I think another controversial result is about to be born..

  2. #2
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Well, I do think that Yuna was slighly overmarked and Mao was slightly undermarked, even without taking into account that the triple-axel is way too underrated under CoP.

    It will be interesting what the results will be after the LP. If both girls skate without major mistakes in the LP, and Mao ends up with a silver, Mao will have failed to have become a Olympic gold medalist after successfully doing THREE triple-axels against someone who is an awesome skater but nevertheless racks up enough points to win by doing three double-axels in her long program.

    This will be sure proof that the present scoring system is out of whack.

  3. #3
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Oh Elvis. Go crawl back in your hole. Nobody cared what you thought about the scoring of the men's competition and they care even less about your comments on the women's. Your time has passed. You're like the 80 year old man boring everyone to death with their stories of what happened back in the good ole days.

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    Elvis is just pissed because all he had to offer the sport is a quad, and he never became an O's champ even with it.

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    Elvis is still trying to validate his opinions about the mens' competition, by using this as another example of how the scoring system failed to deliver. He doesn't actually care about womens' figure skating as his chauvinistic, pig-headed commentary on the men's competition highlights.

  6. #6
    Blue-footed Booby aftertherain's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yangjie View Post
    "Yu-Na Kim is way too far ahead. I don't agree with that," said Stojko. "She skated great. Don't get me wrong, she's awesome. But for Mao to do an awesome triple Axel like that, a triple [Axel] is worth way more than a triple Lutz, triple toe."

    http://www.ctvolympics.ca/figure-ska...u+na+path+gold

    I think another controversial result is about to be born..
    1. "Don't get me wrong, Evan's a great guy, but ... blahblahblah." (I'm not on Team Plushy or Lysacek, btw)

    2. Not according to the rules of CoP, Elvis!

    3. He'll probably be the one to start the "controversy". Le sigh.

    4. She was probably a little high, though. I'll agree with that, but really, this is just an extension of his quad argument. (I soooo knew this would happen)

    5. I swear, after Thursday, he'll probably (depends on the results) say that someone resusitated figure skating, but then it died again. :sheesh:

    Team Mao+Yuna+Joannie+_________
    Last edited by aftertherain; 02-24-2010 at 07:03 AM.

  7. #7
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Well, it's definitely worth debating if a 3Axel-2Toe should be worth more than a 3Lutz-3Toe. The former was considered more difficult in the past.

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    ugh! not again. i think elvis needs a job or something. his stint as the figure skating authority is not cutting it for me.

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    Before Yu-Na's actual scores were shown, I actually thought the gap (between Yu-Na and Mao's results) was going to be close. I can see where Stojko is coming from, but under/overscoring aside, the IJS is what we have right now.

    IIRC, Timothy Goebel (well known for quads himself) responded to Stojko's statements about the men's quad, and I find that his comments could also be relevant to the ladies' triple axel concerns. (http://currentskateofmind.com/2010/0...-stojkos-rant/) While Goebel thought that the quad should be given a higher value, we have to work with the system which we have today. He suggested having an open dialogue with the ISU to determine the status of the quad. I think we can apply the same suggestion to the triple axel. The IJS isn't perfect, but I rather like that it also emphasizes the importance of the other elements in skating. I much prefer Goebel's articulation of what might be wrong with the current system to Stojko's declarations; I feel that the latter's experiences have deeply colored his views of present-day competition. The website Blazing Blades has posted a Russian commentary by Igor Poroshin (it's translated into English), and while the main subject is Plushenko (and the quad, and Lysacek), he also mentions Stojko. Here is the link. http://kwantifiable.xanga.com/722361...-olympic-loss/ Sorry if it's a little off-topic.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well, it's definitely worth debating if a 3Axel-2Toe should be worth more than a 3Lutz-3Toe. The former was considered more difficult in the past.
    There are base values for the combo and it is the sum of the two jumps. If Mao got the correct sum, then there is nothing to debate. Check the protocols.
    3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
    3Z=6.8 + 4.0 sums up go 10.8

    I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3T, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 02-25-2010 at 08:07 AM.

  11. #11
    On the Ice
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    Hmm...from looking at the protocals, is it right that the base value of the 3A/2toe is worth less than the 3lutz/3toe; 9.50 vs. 10.0?! IMO, the 3A combo should be worth way more like 4 points. IMO, the placement of the sp could have gone either way for Kim and Asada, but the 5 pt disparity is unjustified.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ren View Post
    Before Yu-Na's actual scores were shown, I actually thought the gap (between Yu-Na and Mao's results) was going to be close. I can see where Stojko is coming from, but under/overscoring aside, the IJS is what we have right now.

    IIRC, Timothy Goebel (well known for quads himself) responded to Stojko's statements about the men's quad, and I find that his comments could also be relevant to the ladies' triple axel concerns. (http://currentskateofmind.com/2010/0...-stojkos-rant/) While Goebel thought that the quad should be given a higher value, we have to work with the system which we have today. He suggested having an open dialogue with the ISU to determine the status of the quad. I think we can apply the same suggestion to the triple axel. The IJS isn't perfect, but I rather like that it also emphasizes the importance of the other elements in skating. I much prefer Goebel's articulation of what might be wrong with the current system to Stojko's declarations; I feel that the latter's experiences have deeply colored his views of present-day competition. The website Blazing Blades has posted a Russian commentary by Igor Poroshin (it's translated into English), and while the main subject is Plushenko (and the quad, and Lysacek), he also mentions Stojko. Here is the link. http://kwantifiable.xanga.com/722361...-olympic-loss/ Sorry if it's a little off-topic.
    What an interesting article and viewpoint! Thanks for posting. I've always felt that music could make or break a program.

  13. #13
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by peg2010 View Post
    What an interesting article and viewpoint! Thanks for posting. I've always felt that music could make or break a program.
    It's an interesting article, but I find it highly controversial to argue that an Olympic medal should be determined by the skater's musical taste. If it were the Proms or Grammy Awards, sure, but not the Olympics.

    Regarding this debate, I don't think it can be reduced to asking which combo should have more base value. I think that it has to begin with how the triples should be valued against each other, and how the doubles should be valued against each other and also against the triples. It's also about asking if GoE should have so much weight in determining the scores.

    I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.

    In any case, I think that both Yuna and Mao gave Olympic medal worthy SP performances. It definitely is not Yuna's fault that she is so well-served by the present scoring system.
    Last edited by hurrah; 02-24-2010 at 08:42 AM.

  14. #14
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    There are base values for the combo and it is the sum of the two jumps. If Mao got the correct sum, then there is nothing to debate. Check the protocols.
    3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
    3Z=6.8 + 6.8 sums up go 13.6

    I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3Z, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.
    Uh. How do you do Triple Lutz Triple Lutz combination?

    Also Mao flutzes.

  15. #15
    Vancouver 2010, 247.23, Bronze
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    I don't know how accurate Kim's sp marks are, one thing surprised me though:
    a rather low GOE Asada got for her 3A+2T combo: +0.60. That's all. It's as if the judges are saying 'Nah, it was ok, but we've seen better. Much much better 3A+2T combos tonight'. Oh, have they really?

    And I'm not even commenting on Gedevanishvili's + 0.20 GOE on that 2A done out of the spiral. Who cares, right?

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