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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #31
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    Elvis Stoijko would oppose world peace if he thought that massive war was technically more challenging. I'm at the point where I really don't understand how he comes up with his thoughts.
    I used to be an Elvis fan but his diatribes about these Olympics has just turned me off. I'm starting to believe Elvis would like us to can the spins, transitions, footwork, field moves, music, all choreography, and just have four minutes of jumping. The problem with that is, then skating would not be the beautiful and unique sport that it is, and it sure would no longer be the premiere event of the Olympics.

    I thought Mao and Yu-Na were pretty close but I wasn't writing down anything they did, comparing what GOE I'd have given them , or checking the protocols for changes according to the technical specialist. One's opinion of a skate just from watching can be very different if one is just watching and enjoying rather than marking the performances. As to the GOE on Mao's 3ax, I don't think anyone should get positive GOE if there's any question whether or not the jump was fully rotated in the air. She did it and it was clean. Bravo for her, truly, but it wasn't worth a huge GOE.

    But... this is probably influenced by past skaters. This could be a very interesting thread topic.
    I'm remembering previous ladies who did the 3 ax (Tonya, Midori) and how there was never any doubt that those were fully rotated. To me, that's the standard for a ladies 3 ax with positive GOE. Tonya's 3 ax +1 GOE (high and clean but she did it around a corner and didn't always have good flow out). Midori's 3ax +2 (huge, clean, so much flow and ice coverage. It was out of this word). And, for me, +3 is reserved for any female skater whose 3 ax makes me say, "wow, that was even better than Midori's". Thought I doubt I'll ever see that.
    Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 02-24-2010 at 09:58 AM.

  2. #32
    Rinkside
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    Personally, I hate anyone getting downgrades, but I thought both Kim and Mao underrotated their second jumps and should have been given downgrades. But I'm sure the tech caller is afraid to give them downgrades because of the death threats from crazy fans that probably happened the last time.

    I thought Mirai and Rachael really got the short end of the stick. I don't necessarily disagree with the 5th and 6th place rankings, but they should be much closer to the top IMO.

  3. #33
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Elvis Stoijko would oppose world peace if he thought that massive war was technically more challenging.
    Oh he would never win Miss Universe that way!

  4. #34
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Perhaps Elvis and Plushy should get together as a Pairs team.

    I am sure they would have no trouble showing us their mutual love - and can you imagine the sbs quads!

    Who needs "Blades of Glory" when we could have the real thing

  5. #35
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I do understand where elvis is coming from but he never mentions the music.

    All the elements can be judged without music as they are in Diving, Music is not needed except for exhibition purposes.

    And he would be correct for SPORT.

  6. #36
    Always Believed! Sk8n Mama's Avatar
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    3A=8.2 + 1.3 sums up to 9.5
    3Z=6.8 + 6.8 sums up go 13.6
    Base value: 3 lutz+3toe=10

    Base Value: 3ax+2toe=9.5

    Does that clarify for everyone? Yu-Na doing 3-3 was actually slightly higher base than Mao's 3ax-2toe per CoP.

    The judges gave Yu-Na higher GOE on everything but the step sequence and I'd have to agree with that. Mao's footwork was better. Mao took a risk doing the 3ax-2 toe. IMHO, Maos' jumps are just done but nothing special so I'm not suprised she only got a little bit of positive GOE on each jump with Yu-Na getting more GOE on her jumps.

    Oh well, onto the LP. Will Mao go for two 3 axs now? Will her not getting a higher technical score with the 3 ax make her reconsider including the 3 ax or how many? Do you think she should go for it or play it safe? If I was coaching her, I'd probably wnat her to play it safe: but it's usually the people who go for it that win Olys.
    Last edited by Sk8n Mama; 02-24-2010 at 10:27 AM.

  7. #37
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by screech View Post
    Elvis is just pissed because all he had to offer the sport is a quad, and he never became an O's champ even with it.
    I was thinking much the same thing.

  8. #38
    Tripping on the Podium
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    I agree with Elvis in this case and in his case for the quads. Both jumps are not given enough points in this system. Those who take the risks to do these jumps should get rewarded higher points. Otherwise, the sport will go backwards.

    A triple axel/double combination should get the same or higher scores than a 3/3. Why? Because the triple axel is the hardest jump to perform and hardly any men even do the triple axel in combination. Less than a handful of women in the history of figure skating have been able to land one in competition.

    That said, Mao and her coaches know the base value of this combo when they constructed the program and they knew the base value of a 3/3. So, if Mao would have done a 3/3 she would be a few points closer to Kim Yu Na's score.

  9. #39
    On the Ice
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    Thanks for the info, Sk8n Mama. If I were to write the scoring, I would have:

    BV: 3/lutz/3toe=10
    BV: 3Axel/2toe=15 pts

    I pretty much agree with everything else with the judges's GOEs for these two fine skaters. With the suggested BV, the disparity between Kim and Asada would be less. To me, the 5 pt difference is too big. On another note, I would have put Rochette's performance as 1st for obvious reasons.

  10. #40
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    I am sure Mao can execute a 3Z x 3Z, but she didn't. Probably wanted to get the feel of the 3A before the LP. Her LP will possibly have both.
    Mao hasn't landed one 3lutz this season much less a 3lutz/3toe.

    I think it's a delicate balancing act, but as I have already said, if Mao takes silver despite having performed solidly with three triple-axels, against Yuna's great performance where her double-axels will have played a determining role, then this has got to raise some questions about the present system.
    I love how you mention Yu-na's 3 double axels while ignoring that only one is in replacement for a triple jump (the 3loop) The other is a requirement, and the last double axel is a reward because Yu-na attempts a 3lutz/3toe and a double axel/3toe.

    As I mentioned earlier Mao hasn't landed a 3lutz this season, and doesn't even bother to attempt them. Nor is she doing a 3sal. She also hasn't been doing 3/3s in her program. Mao would benefit more from having a triple axel, if she had the other triples and was doing a 3/3.

    I find it annoying for people to suggest Kim takes no risks at all. As if 3lutz/3toes were just common things from ladies, and as if Mao has shown an ability to do that combination herself.

    In 2008 when Mao was doing a triple axel and a 3flip/3toe along with a 3flip/3loop. Mao would have been undefeated if clean. Because she was showing the judges she could do everything Yu-na could do and more.

  11. #41
    Custom Title Nadia01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    In 2008 when Mao was doing a triple axel and a 3flip/3toe along with a 3flip/3loop. Mao would have been undefeated if clean. Because she was showing the judges she could do everything Yu-na could do and more.
    When you put it that way, it's astounding how Mao's jumps have deteriorated...

  12. #42
    Custom Title antmanb's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=miki88;477420]
    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    So you think judges don't ever do comparisons between skaters when scoring? Anyways, nothing wrong with stating opinions about the judging system~~~.
    Where in my post did i say that judges don't ever compare skaters when scoring?

    What annoys me a little is when people write strong opinions on judges and how they judged a competition or applied the rules, when the poster then admits that they've "heard" something about the rules rather than read them....how good an opinion is it if it's based on heresay about the rules and the person hasn't even read the rules for themselves? How do they know that the heresay about the rules is even correct?

    Ant

  13. #43
    Tripping on the Podium
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    I think Stojko did not cosider why Team Mao had to do 3A-2T(9.50) instead of 3Lz-3Lo(11.00) or 3Lz-3T(10.00) or 3F-3Lo(10.50) whatever 3-3 more valuable than 9.50.
    IS he really interested in Ladies figure skating ? Anyway, I think he has a strong and interesting character.

  14. #44
    Rinkside
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    As I mentioned earlier Mao hasn't landed a 3lutz this season, and doesn't even bother to attempt them. Nor is she doing a 3sal. She also hasn't been doing 3/3s in her program. Mao would benefit more from having a triple axel, if she had the other triples and was doing a 3/3.
    I wish Yu-na will dazzle me with a 3loop in her LP.

    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I find it annoying for people to suggest Kim takes no risks at all. As if 3lutz/3toes were just common things from ladies, and as if Mao has shown an ability to do that combination herself.

    In 2008 when Mao was doing a triple axel and a 3flip/3toe along with a 3flip/3loop. Mao would have been undefeated if clean. Because she was showing the judges she could do everything Yu-na could do and more.
    Mao does 3axel/2toe, which NO ONE skater in the world (at least currently) can do, not even Yu-na. What I understand from reading your post is that, on top of 3axel/2Toe, Mao needs to do 3Flip/3Toe plus a 3Flip/3Loop, before it becomes reasonable for her to beat Yu-na?

  15. #45
    Gadfly and Bon Vivant Mafke's Avatar
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    Shorter Elvis Stojko : Those damned dirty judges refuse to give Asada's combo more points than they're allowed to!

    Look, I'm open to the suggestion that quads, and ladies' 3axs should get more points than they currently do (and that judges should give more benefit of a doubt in terms of underrotations - and for 3-3 ladies combination too).

    But .... that's a question for after this season. The skaters' teams knew, or should have known, what the point values were coming into this competition and the belly-aching about how skaters should get more points than they're allowed (or how a particular jump element should raise PC scores or get +GOE when not terribly well done) is getting on my last nerve.

    I haven't seen either Asada's or Kim's SPs yet (and with the ridiculous youtube ban probably won't for a while) but it seems that following the current rules Kim's combo is worth more points than Asada's. Talk about whether that's fair or not are more suited to a later time.
    Last edited by Mafke; 02-24-2010 at 10:58 AM. Reason: clearity

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