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Thread: Stojko opposes the ladies result

  1. #91
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    I regret to say that I have not had time to read this entire thread, but I have read enough to want to assert one thing.

    I do not think this is a "wuzrobbed" scenario. I think that some people are simply trying to say that, in their opinion, the rules need changing. That is a very different claim from saying a skater "wuzrobbed" under the present rules. It is, rather, an advisement about the future of skating, which everyone has a right to offer, and most especially, Olympic medallists of yesteryear.

    I am a fan of all three of the ladies leading after the SP, by the way. I do not have time right now to contribute to the discussion any further, but I do think the discussion itself is legitimate and valuable. If no one were ever allowed to say the current system needs certain changes, then there would be little point in having discussion boards in the first place.

  2. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I suspect the ISU is going to take action about the value of the quad and triple axel after the season is over. I think maybe they could reward harder combos too.
    ITA. There is definitely something wrong with a scoring system that doesn't reward "rarer" jumps (quad for men, 3A for women) the way they should be. In women's skating, many women from past years and this competition have been been able to do triple triples, but maybe three or four in history have successfully done the triple axel. I think it's obvious which jump is harder just based on the statistics. Truth be told, I'm fed up with the COP because it's still a subjective system, it's still easy to manipulate, and it doesn't reward athleticism as much as it should.

    As far as Elvis goes, I don't see anything wrong with his opinion. The system is far from perfect and he's just voicing his frustration.

  3. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlattFan View Post
    If that was the case, Kim should not get huge GOE on her triple triple combo. Her 3T was barely rotated.
    Her flip was also barely rotated. NBC showed a super slowmo at the end.
    Both girls barely rotated their jumps, just one get bigger GOE?
    I actually had my doubts about the 3T myself when I watched the close-up slo-mo, but then I realized as I was watching the full-body slo-mo that when she was taking off her right foot was angled to the right, rather than parallel to the direction she was facing. I don't know if this is a legit point, but sometimes watching only the feet can be deceptive.

  4. #94
    Go marry the quad if you love it so much DesertRoad's Avatar
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    For people who missed it, let me reiterate what antmanb said:

    A triple axel is already worth more than a triple lutz. Durrr, anybody can look that up and find that out. And nobody disagrees with that. Mao earned more points on the triple axel than Kim on the triple lutz. What gave Kim more points on the combo is the triple toe. See, a triple toe is worth more than a double toe, because durrrr, the double toe is a pretty damn basic jump. What Elvis, who's been bonked in the head one too many times in his karate matches, really means is: he wants the double toe to be worth more.

    This is what people don't get about the COP. They want to hang it all on one jump or one move. The COP changes the scoring in skating to a cumulative and additive system, in which all your elements count. You can't just do one difficult element and expect a huge total score, you have to do make sure all your elements are difficult and do them all well to get a huge total score. It's a very rational way of measuring technical achievement in figure skating. It doesn't let the wow factor of one move obsolete the rest of the score.

  5. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Yes they showed Rachael and the second jump and maybe both on her 3x3 was ur'ed. . Even Scott said so and he rarely goes against an American skater. Her solo 3Lutz was also questionable and sloppy.
    Rachael and Miki were treated very kindly last night as both made mistakes.
    Scott said a lot of crappy things last night. But when did he say both 3x3 was URed? Both Scott and Sandra said the 3T was close, the 3L was close. But the 3F was fine, they said. Why do you like to make up things?

  6. #96
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DesertRoad View Post
    For people who missed it, let me reiterate what antmanb said:

    A triple axel is already worth more than a triple lutz. Durrr, anybody can look that up and find that out. And nobody disagrees with that. Mao earned more points on the triple axel than Kim on the triple lutz. What gave Kim more points on the combo is the triple toe. See, a triple toe is worth more than a double toe, because durrrr, the double toe is a pretty damn basic jump. What Elvis, who's been bonked in the head one too many times in his karate matches, really means is: he wants the double toe to be worth more.

    This is what people don't get about the COP. They want to hang it all on one jump or one move. The COP changes the scoring in skating to a cumulative and additive system, in which all your elements count. You can't just do one difficult element and expect a huge total score, you have to do make sure all your elements are difficult and do them all well to get a huge total score. It's a very rational way of measuring technical achievement in figure skating. It doesn't let the wow factor of one move obsolete the rest of the score.
    Desert. Its not rational that Yu-na's base value for doing a 3lutz/3toe and a single flip is the same as doing a 3flip/3toe and a single lutz. It's also not rational that Plushenko's base value would be the same if he did a 4/3toe and a single 3toe and if he did a single 4toe and a 3toe/3toe. That's not rational. It's pretty darn clear that a 4/3toe is significantly harder than a 3toe/3toe, and that its significantly harder to do the 4/3toe than it is to do a single 4toe.
    Last edited by bekalc; 02-24-2010 at 02:03 PM.

  7. #97
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    That's how I feel about the situation as well. This being said I think you could argue that 3/3 rules should be changed to award harder 3/3s. I mean Yu-na didn't get any extra base value points for doing a 3lutz/3toe instead of a 3flip/3toe. (That's ridiculous) But the scores between Mao and Yu-na should be closer. I suspect the ISU is going to take action about the value of the quad and triple axel after the season is over. I think maybe they could reward harder combos too.
    ITA. Maybe give some sort of bonus for making the first jump of the combination a more difficult one.

    Something else I'd love to see: second half bonuses only for triple/quad jumps, and then maybe we'll stop seeing everyone doing those 2A-2T combinations. I have some other ideas, but they don't belong in this thread...

  8. #98
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    ITA. Maybe give some sort of bonus for making the first jump of the combination a more difficult one.

    Something else I'd love to see: second half bonuses only for triple/quad jumps, and then maybe we'll stop seeing everyone doing those 2A-2T combinations. I have some other ideas, but they don't belong in this thread...
    What about a reward though to encourage people to go for 3/3/3s and 4/3/3s as well...(Just a thought) The way combinations are rewarded in this system drives me nuts. I mean Yu-na could probably do a 3flip/3toe and a 3lutz/3toe in her program. She's landing both of those combinations in practice on Olympic ice. But she's going to do the double axel/3toe instead. Because she gets no extra points for going for the harder combo, and because the combination is easier she can put it a transition into and Get put it at the end of her program.

    This being said I'm tired of people arguing that Mao is the only one pushing the sport. Yes, more ladies have done 3lutz/3toes, but Yu-na was the only one at this competition. That combination isn't exactly easy either.

  9. #99
    Go marry the quad if you love it so much DesertRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    Desert. Its not rational that Yu-na's base value for doing a 3lutz/3toe and a single flip is the same as doing a 3flip/3toe and a single lutz. It's also not rational that Plushenko's base value would be the same if he did a 4/3toe and a single 3toe and if he did a single 4toe and a 3toe/3toe. That's not rational. It's pretty darn clear that a 4/3toe is significantly harder than a 3toe/3toe, and that its significantly harder to do the 4/3toe than it is to do a single 4toe.
    So you're arguing that the 3lutz/3toe should be worth more. Well, ok, that doesn't really pertain to Elvis' argument or my counterargument. Let me clarify: I do not think the COP is in any way, shape or form sensible or even close to it. What is rational is the idea that individual elements add up to form a total technical score, and one difficult element with easier elements doesn't trump a program with less difficulty on one element, but more difficulty in other elements.

  10. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    This being said I'm tired of people arguing that Mao is the only one pushing the sport. Yes, more ladies have done 3lutz/3toes, but Yu-na was the only one at this competition. That combination isn't exactly easy either.
    Technically, Mao pushed the sport in 2008. She was doing 3F-3T, 3F-3R and 3A. She pushed Yuna to go for the 3L-3T, partly.
    I thought Yuna was going to lead by 2 points. Her SP wasn't as good as SA. Some part, she was ahead of the music. I seriously thought she was going to get a high 75.
    She's the best in the SP, but the judges clearly went overboard with the score.

  11. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nadia01 View Post
    I dont' think judges are really looking at how pretty Yuna looks from ankle up when she does spiral. They're looking at her edge & how fast she's skating, etc.
    They should be as that is one of the criteria for a +GOE.... good body line.

  12. #102
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    Quote Originally Posted by adoreyuna View Post
    I think Stojko did not cosider why Team Mao had to do 3A-2T(9.50) instead of 3Lz-3Lo(11.00) or 3Lz-3T(10.00) or 3F-3Lo(10.50) whatever 3-3 more valuable than 9.50.
    IS he really interested in Ladies figure skating ? Anyway, I think he has a strong and interesting character.
    Your words are exactly my thoughts.

    Surely Team Mao should have realized that the base score for the 3A-2T is less than the 3-3 combinations you mentioned. And since Mao is supposedly such a more technically advanced skater than YuNa, who isn't able to do the 3A (and gave up trying to do it shortly after Orser became her full-time coach, I guess they figured out the math), then Team Mao should have said "oh pfffft, 3Lz-3Lo, I can do that in my sleep, and it's worth more, let's go with that."

    Can anyone imagine why they didn't? Here are a few reasons I think are possible:
    - Team Mao can't do basic math.
    - Team Mao can't read the ISU handbook on the scoring for jumps.
    - Team Mao prefers the 3Axel. It gives Mao more status, it shows off her technical mastery, and even if it's worth less than the 3-3's under CoP, surely the clean execution should have garnered more points in GoE or even PCS since it's so impressive
    - Mao is less consistent on or unable to do a 3-3 that outscores her 3A-2T combination.

    I think it's most likely the 3rd and 4th lines of reasoning that factored in. I think it's a bit of a flawed way of thinking, to say that the 3A-2 combination is necessarily more difficult than 3Lz-3T because so few women are even able to land the 3A. Likewise, sometimes a triple jump that has a lower base value under CoP (e.g. the 3S) is more difficult for some skaters than one with a higher base (e.g. 3F or 3Lz, as seems true for YuNa and was also true for Kristi Yamaguchi, to give some examples.)

    It seems easier for Mao to do the 3A-2T than for her to do a 3Lz-3T. And certainly YuNa finds it easier to do the 3Lz-3T than to do a 3A...

    However, I do agree that the 3A needs to be worth more in base value, as well as quads. YuNa gave up trying the 3A (who knows if she would have ever been able to do it) and many men gave up even practicing quads in recent years simply because they weren't worth the training and the risk of attempting them in competitions under CoP. And I think it'd be a huge shame to have them disappear. We are very used to hearing about how Mao regularly does the 3A and it seems easily tossed aside as something fairly impressive, yet routine. It's not. It is still a huge anomaly among the ladies, and quads are as spectacular as ever. It's not a quantitative thing for me, something that just "adds" to a program or skater's skill set. It's qualitative; it's there or it isn't, and when it's there, it's pretty damn cool.

    I also agree with bekalc in that combinations of difficult jumps need to be rewarded more properly; and that more difficult combinations should be better rewarded than easier ones.
    Last edited by prettykeys; 02-24-2010 at 02:18 PM.

  13. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    That's how I feel about the situation as well. This being said I think you could argue that 3/3 rules should be changed to award harder 3/3s. I mean Yu-na didn't get any extra base value points for doing a 3lutz/3toe instead of a 3flip/3toe. (That's ridiculous) But the scores between Mao and Yu-na should be closer. I suspect the ISU is going to take action about the value of the quad and triple axel after the season is over. I think maybe they could reward harder combos too.
    I agree that values for some harder jumps, e.g. quad-triple combo in men´s competition, should be changed. On the other hand also the way PCS scores are being given, should be changed also. They should be given for what actually happens on the ice in that particular competition and not be based on reputation (Joubert and Plushenko´s choreography and transitions).

  14. #104
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Not only was the base value of the ENTIRE combination higher, but the quality of the combination was much better. Mao was creeping across the ice going into the 3A so slowly it was VERY noticeable on NBC and I thought for sure she was going to UR it (GOE bullet - speed/flow going in) and the landing of the 2T was at a dead stop (GOE bullet - out flow). It also went up and down and didn't cover a ton of ice (ice coverage - GOE bullet), didn't have difficult transitions in/out (GOE bullet + TR mark). It was telegraphed for a good 10 or so seconds before taking off (telegraphed jump - negative GOE bullet).

    Also, compare speed and flow throughout the entire program. A big portion of the PCS difference is in the 4 PCS corridor marks (SS, IN, PE, CH) because of the skating skills mark. Didn't Kim get ~ 1/2 point higher on SS alone? From what I could tell from NBC's coverage, it was well deserved as there's a definite difference.

    Degree of difficulty which seems to be a major argument here is covered in the base value of the element (3A > 3Lz). There's been a great deal of discussion and debate about multipliers for combinations, etc but so far no action to increase combo base values based on their difficulty has been accepted during ISU congresses.

  15. #105
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    I wonder if people who think 3A should awarded more scores agree with Plushy's arguments about quad :P

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